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Old 04-17-2016, 07:40 PM   #21
Archaea
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It would happen anyway. Let the free market figure it out. I don't think there is any reason for the government to make the call on how and when the economy decides to automate certain jobs because being the government they'll probably screw it up somehow. None of this changes the curious fact that conservatives don't trust the free market in some things even though they pay it so much lip service otherwise. I personally think for most people it's a case of being uncomfortable with the social/cultural changes immigrants make on the country, so they try to find less emotional and economic reasons to explain their opposition to it. As Chinocoug already pointed out, the data currently shows that the level of illegal immigration right now is the lowest it has been in years. When the jobs aren't available, folks don't come, just as you wouldn't move to another state if you didn't think you could get a job there.
I am not certain we are speaking to each other correctly.

I am in favor of free trade.
I am in favor of not setting prices for labor.

I am not in favor of unskilled labor being paid according to off the books wages, not in accordance with law required of citizens.

Thus, if we were required to follow the same laws for paying unskilled citizens, do you believe we would have unskilled jobs available for those who are undocumented?

We want the benefit of the lowest prices, but lowest prices where labor has a level playing field, in terms of playing by the same rules.

As far as the "market correcting", I would state it more accurately, the "market reacts and adjusts", but I would state "correcting" is inaccurate.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:31 PM   #22
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I am not certain we are speaking to each other correctly.

I am in favor of free trade.
I am in favor of not setting prices for labor.

I am not in favor of unskilled labor being paid according to off the books wages, not in accordance with law required of citizens.

Thus, if we were required to follow the same laws for paying unskilled citizens, do you believe we would have unskilled jobs available for those who are undocumented?

We want the benefit of the lowest prices, but lowest prices where labor has a level playing field, in terms of playing by the same rules.

As far as the "market correcting", I would state it more accurately, the "market reacts and adjusts", but I would state "correcting" is inaccurate.
I understand most of that, and I think you're right on most of those points.

Just for clarification: Do you think the market automatically fills any labor we need, and expunges any labor we don't need, or do we need the government to do something?
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Old 06-22-2016, 06:35 PM   #23
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Some fun reading today about Trump and the economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ecb_story.html

"Economists, political scientists and historians on both left and right have repeatedly warned about the dangers of a trade war, international isolationism, mass deportation and federal debt explosion."

The Pro-Trump comments are kind of funny. Lots of anger toward Obama/Hillary/Liberals/the media, but short on anything substantive as to why the economic concerns around Trump's policies are not warranted.

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Old 06-22-2016, 10:19 PM   #24
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I understand most of that, and I think you're right on most of those points.

Just for clarification: Do you think the market automatically fills any labor we need, and expunges any labor we don't need, or do we need the government to do something?
I know there are varying theories on this, but I do not see a role for government to fill in regards to labor, except for providing education to up-skill the labor force.
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Old 06-28-2016, 06:29 PM   #25
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I know there are varying theories on this, but I do not see a role for government to fill in regards to labor, except for providing education to up-skill the labor force.
If you see the government having a role in limiting immigration, then that is very much the government taking a role in strongly influencing the labor pool rather than just letting the market regulate it.

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Old 06-28-2016, 08:26 PM   #26
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If you see the government having a role in limiting immigration, then that is very much the government taking a role in strongly influencing the labor pool rather than just letting the market regulate it.
I believe we need a coherent policy on borders and whom we allow in, because there will otherwise be an unlevel playing field. I don't exactly see that as a labor force issue, but rather a sovereignty issue.

We need a coherent policy on controlling entry into the country for purposes of security and equal labor treatment. If some labor comes in and is paid under the table while residents are paid above board, it is not an equal playing field.

If the economy dictates the need for cheap, unskilled labor and Congress allows for the numbers to increase, that makes sense. Indirectly, it impacts the labor force, but I focus upon the sovereignty and security issue before the issue of labor.
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Old 07-14-2016, 02:47 PM   #27
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We need a coherent policy on controlling entry into the country for purposes of security and equal labor treatment. If some labor comes in and is paid under the table while residents are paid above board, it is not an equal playing field.
It's the current policy we have that is creating the under the table labor. Black markets are a symptom of the government trying to ban something there is a market for. Think of drugs. They are sold under the table because they're illegal. So the government has a choice of either changing the laws to allow for that demand for labor to be satisfied legally, in which case the black market either completely or mostly goes away. Or they can just try to get more heavy handed and oppressive or wasteful (building a massively expensive and ineffective wall) in continuing to ineffectively enforce badly flawed current law. Market forces don't just go away just because politicians pass and try to enforce laws trying to ban a demand the market is trying to supply (again, think of the ineffective costly war on drugs). It's better, IMO, to work with them productively to create a better situation for all rather than fight them. Government central planning didn't work too well for the soviets. I don't think we're going to be better at it. Whatever market forces are trying to do, if Congress has to get involved for us to legally allow the free market to operate, they will screw it up.

I do agree the government should keep track of and monitor who is entering the country for security reasons. Keep out those who have and are likely to break laws and cause trouble. But let in honest folks who are just wanting to work and improve their situation if there are jobs for them. People like that and their kids usually end up becoming excellent, productive citizens who contribute positively to society. People born into poor circumstances who have the drive to get up and move to another country for work despite all the language, cultural and economic barriers, instead of staying home asking their homeland for handouts, are exactly the kind of people a free country should want. Look at stagnating Europe's historically bad attitude toward foreign immigrants to see why the Trump "keep everyone the hell out of our country" attitude doesn't work. When there aren't jobs available then they largely won't come anyway. Immigration levels drop when the economy slows. Data shows this is what happens. Current legal and illegal immigration levels are at historically pretty low levels right now but politicians and wackos like Trump are preying on fears and fanning anti-foreigner flames right now because it's politically expedient, which I think is disgusting.

There are problems. It's just that I see most of the problems we have related to immigration are actually being caused by the bad immigration laws we have on the books. Enforcing these more vigorously is not going to help anything, IMO.

I am an unabashed classical liberal (not to be confused with a modern democrat party liberal)

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