Barry Bonds broke the HR record

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Oh come on. He had a stunning sudden increase in productivity during the same year that his head and his feet grew by two sizes. How can you possibly argue that it made little difference?

And the fact that he didn't need to do steroids to be a great player only makes it all the more maddening.

Find me a one conclusive study that shows steroids helps you hit more homeruns.

Really he has only had the one monster year and has been pretty consistent otherwise though his HR numbers have steadily climbed. But also so have his walks. He's a patient hitter and will take a walk. This gives him more opportunities to get better pitches because he'll wait for his and not take the bat off his shoulder forcing pitchers to throw strikes.

Tell me who has had more 50+ HR seasons, Mantle or Bonds?

People make it seem like Bonds has been hitting 73 every year. When in reality that was the only season he's hit more than 50. You're going to tell me that steroids was the reason for that single blow up? That season has done more to indict Bonds than anything else. If he had only hit 50 that year and were still trailing Hank there wouldn't be nearly the discussion about it that there is now.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by surfah33

Find me a one conclusive study that shows steroids helps you hit more homeruns.

Let's see, if you take two guys with equally quick and compacty swings and one guy is 20% stronger than the other guy, who will hit the ball farther? Or, if you bring in the fecnes in every ballpark 10-15%, will you hit more home runs?

You also seem to think that the only drug Bonds took was steroids. That si not likely. While he certainly took steroids, he also probabyl took HGH or someo ther simialr PED. THis would have not only made him stronger, but it owuld have made hiim recover more quickly, given him better endurance, rejuvenated his connective tissue and perhaps even improived his eyesight. MLB did not test for all of these PEDs but their use is still illegal.

[Archaea]

I know everybody has convicted Bonds, and he is certainly not favorite player, but the achievement is remarkable no matter what.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7103350

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I know everybody has convicted Bonds, and he is certainly not favorite player, but the achievement is remarkable no matter what.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7103350

I agree, but it is riduclulous to assert that he didn't take PED. IMO it is also silly to think they didn't affect and improve his career stats.

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by creekster

Let's see, if you take two guys with equally quick and compacty swings and one guy is 20% stronger than the other guy, who will hit the ball farther? Or, if you bring in the fecnes in every ballpark 10-15%, will you hit more home runs?

You also seem to think that the only drug Bonds took was steroids. That si not likely. While he certainly took steroids, he also probabyl took HGH or someo ther simialr PED. THis would have not only made him stronger, but it owuld have made hiim recover more quickly, given him better endurance, rejuvenated his connective tissue and perhaps even improived his eyesight. MLB did not test for all of these PEDs but their use is still illegal.

It's a hypothetical that can never be tested. Because in baseball all things will never be equal. So really it was unfair of me to ask. But studies that have been done are inconclusive at best.

He may have taken additional PEDs. He may have only taken the cream and clear that one time he admitted to his entire career. I doubt he took PEDs for recovery. The guy takes more nights off than any other player in the league.

Again we can all speculate as to what he took and how it might have helped him, but at the end of the day, just like Teddy Williams used to say, the hardest thing in sports is to hit a round ball with a round bat. Or as Pete Rose added, it's a round ball and a round bat and you have to hit it square. And Bonds has done that just about better than everyone. Steroids don't put the bat on the ball.

And again, aside from the aberration of 73, he has been remarkably consistent with his power. Do I believe steroids made him 20% stronger and turned 23 more pop ups into home runs? Not for a second.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by surfah33

It's a hypothetical that can never be tested. Because in baseball all things will never be equal. So really it was unfair of me to ask. But studies that have been done are inconclusive at best.

He may have taken additional PEDs. He may have only taken the cream and clear that one time he admitted to his entire career. I doubt he took PEDs for recovery. The guy takes more nights off than any other player in the league.

Again we can all speculate as to what he took and how it might have helped him, but at the end of the day, just like Teddy Williams used to say, the hardest thing in sports is to hit a round ball with a round bat. Or as Pete Rose added, it's a round ball and a round bat and you have to hit it square. And Bonds has done that just about better than everyone. Steroids don't put the bat on the ball.

And again, aside from the aberration of 73, he has been remarkably consistent with his power. Do I believe steroids made him 20% stronger and turned 23 more pop ups into home runs? Not for a second.

It's not that kind of recovery. It's the kind that allows your muscles to recover more quickly so body-building efforts are more producitve. Bonds himself is a study. Look at his production. Pitching was pretty much the same. In 2000 he hits what had been up until then the highest number of HR in his career, which was 49. In 2001 he then saw an increase of 50% to 73. This increase is between his 15 and 16th seasons. I think the claim of 20% is modest. I realize that Maris did somethign simiaslr, but he did so without all of the other indicia of cheating and illegality that Bonds has shown. Sure, bonds is a great player, and he would be great under any circumstance, but he bought this record thorugh the use of PEDs and the silence of his buddy Greg Anderson. You might think that's ok, but it seems imposible to deny.

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by creekster

It's not that kind of recovery. It's the kind that allows your muscles to recover more quickly so body-building efforts are more producitve. Bonds himself is a study. Look at his production. Pitching was pretty much the same. In 2000 he hits what had been up until then the highest number of HR in his career, which was 49. In 2001 he then saw an increase of 50% to 73. This increase is between his 15 and 16th seasons. I think the claim of 20% is modest. I realize that Maris did somethign simiaslr, but he did so without all of the other indicia of cheating and illegality that Bonds has shown. Sure, bonds is a great player, and he would be great under any circumstance, but he bought this record thorugh the use of PEDs and the silence of his buddy Greg Anderson. You might think that's ok, but it seems imposible to deny.

I am not denying it. He admitted to taking the cream and clear so there's no sense in saying he never took PEDs.

But I don't buy that he bought the record through PEDs. I will never be convinced that steroids helped him hit more home runs than anyone else. Nobody will ever be able to determine how many he hit with their aid. And likewise nobody could say how many more he could have hit if pitchers he were facing weren't taking PEDs either.

And like you acknowledged Maris did the same thing. Different era, much more difficult to do then in my opinion than today. Both had remarkable years that were clearly out of their averages.

I don't buy the age thing either as though there is no way a 37 year old could hit that many homeruns.

I am not a Bonds fan. Never liked him. But he's the best baseball player of this generation. It's worth saying again, he was the best before the steroid allegations and he's been the best since.

[cougjunkie]

I am going to have to agree with Fusnik and Surfah to a certain extent. He has admitted to taking something to what extent nobody but Barry and a few others know.

I think part of the reason he does get such a bad rap is because face it he is an ass to the media and has lots of run ins with teammates. The stories about having his whole entourage in the locker room (trainers, masseuse, assistant, etc) with 3 lockers and 3 recliners is ridiculous.

However if he was americas sweet heart like some other players it maybe whispered about hte steroids but no way it gets as big as it has.

Like Surfah said it is to hard to go back and compare what ifs? between Bonds, Ruth, Aaron etc. For example Babe Ruth never had to face african american players who knows how much that would have affected his game. Also in 1920 Ruth his 54 homeruns, second place was George Sisler with 19, in 1921 he hit 59, second place had 24. What did people say back then? Thats right that he was just that much better than everyone else. Why cant bonds be just that much better?

Also look at the NFL where in the 70s and 80s lineman were weighing 250 pounds and that was considered large. Now its 325+ yet they are running 40s faster than running backs of the 70s. You cant tell me that they are all doing steroids, could it be technology, and science have helped them increase there size, strength and speed?

[SteelBlue]

You guys are starting to embarrass yourselves. C'mon, it isn't exactly rocket science when everybody in MLB with crazy numbers magically added 40 pounds over the winter before the explosion. Of course steroids, HGH etc... improve performance. That's why they spend a hell of a lot of money on them. Are you trying to tell me that Barry, Mark and Sammy just wanted to look bigger? They'd be the first to tell you that steroids enhance baseball performance.

Surfah, your consistency theory doesn't hold in my opinion: He hit 40+ home runs 3 times in the 14 seasons prior to hiring Anderson as his trainer which is also when he is purported to have begun using (sometime prior to 2000 season opener). It had been 7 seasons since his highest HR total of 46, the only time in his career he'd hit more than 45. In 2000 he was 36 years old and for the next 5 seasons he hit 45 or more HR's. In 2005 he was out for most of the season with his knee.

[Surfah]

Where's Il Pad been? I am surprised he hasn't weighed in.