Does Vick deserve to have his life ruined for this?

[RockyBalboa]

I think what Vick did was despicable.

I think athletes who abuse their wives, girlfriends and are abusive in nature are worse than Michael Vick.

In my mind abuse of humans is worse than abuse of animals. Therefore I think they and Vick are all both scum. Pure scum.

I think those who abuse people are worse scum than those who abuse dogs.

My statements there alone would be enough to send PETA into conniptions.

[Black Diamond Bay]

I don't think it is. I'm not saying that Vick doesn't have some big time issues, but I'm unclear as to what is going to be gained by ruining him.

The operation has been shutdown, he's paid out heaven only knows how much to care for or destroy the remaining dogs.

So what is sending him to prison and banning him from the NFL really going to do?

Seems to me that the best case scenario here would be to have him serve a minimal amount of time and then send the guy into some mandatory intense rehab to see if they can't set him straight before the next thing he kills is a person. IMO, if they send him to prison for a few years, and ban him from the NFL, society ends up with a much bigger problem on their hands when he gets out than they would have if they'd dealt with this in a more just, less emotionally reactive fashion. The last thing we need is one more angry, unemployed, thug on the street. If he can't play football what future does he have really? Let's be honest, nobody's going to want to hire him when he gets out. My guess is we'll see him in the papers somewhere down the road but next time it won't be for dog fighting.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Here's another point of view... From the best football journalist out there

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...erbrook/070816

I tend to agree with TMQ...

This article demonstrates why Vick had to be destroyed. Indeed, the NFL at every level is blood sport. Profossional dog fighting and destroying the damaged dogs hits too close to home. If it were drugs then there would be room for mercy. But the NFL can't countenance this kind of thing or the average Joe will start to see the NFL and professoinal dog fighting as kindred...

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This article demonstrates why Vick had to be destroyed. Indeed, the NFL at every level is blood sport. Profossional dog fighting and destroying the damaged dogs hits too close to home. If it were drugs then there would be room for mercy. But the NFL can't countenance this kind of thing or the average Joe will start to see the NFL and professoinal dog fighting as kindred...

If it were drugs there would be room for mercy???? Because it's okay to hurt people?

THEY'RE DOGS, NOT PEOPLE. No matter how disturbing it was, or wrong it was, we're still talking about animals.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

If it were drugs there would be room for mercy???? Because it's okay to hurt people?

THEY'RE DOGS, NOT PEOPLE. No matter how disturbing it was, or wrong it was, we're still talking about animals.

Don't kill the messenger. I'm telling you what the NFL is thinking.

[Mormon Red Death]

More from Easterbrooke...

The disgusting thing about dogfighting isn't that animals battle and die -- after all, animals fight to the death in nature, tearing each other's flesh with heartless violence. The disgusting thing about dogfighting is that supposedly intelligent members of Homo sapiens add sadism to the natural equation by starving dogs to make them extra aggressive, filing their incisors to make the fights bloodier, and engaging in other acts unbecoming any man or woman of ethics. What Michael Vick confessed to Monday ought to disgust you, regardless of whether you are a dog lover. Include me. The Official Dog of TMQ -- a Chesapeake retriever, noble state dog of Maryland -- slumbers happily near my feet as I write this.

But the punishment expected to be imposed on Vick -- one to two years in federal prison, and perhaps never playing in the NFL again -- seems out of proportion to his actions and his status as a first-time offender. The situation is confusing because the federal crimes to which Vick pleaded guilty turn as much on gambling and racketeering as dogfighting; gambling and racketeering concern federal prosecutors because of their relationship to organized crime. Racketeering can lead to jail terms even for nonviolent first-time offenders not involved with drug sales, such as Vick. The NFL, for its part, has very strong reasons to detest gambling, and elaborately warns players they will be harshly penalized for associating with gamblers. Yet I can't help feeling there is overkill in the social, media and legal reactions to Vick, and that the overkill originates in hypocrisy about animals.

Thousands of animals are mistreated or killed in the United States every day without the killers so much as being criticized, let alone imprisoned. Ranchers and farmers kill stock animals or horses that are sick or injured. Some ranchers kill stock animals as gently as possible, others callously; in either case, prosecution is nearly unheard of. As Derek Jackson pointed out last week in the Boston Globe, greyhound tracks routinely race dogs to exhaustion and injury, then kill the losers, or simply eliminate less-strong pups: "184,604 greyhound puppies judged to be inferior for racing" were killed, legally, in the past 20 years.

Hunters shoot animals for sport. They do so lawfully, while the manner in which Vick harmed his dogs was unlawful. But from the perspective of the animal, there seems little difference between a hunter with a state game license zipped in his vest pocket shooting a deer as part of something the hunter views as really fun sport, and Vick shooting a dog as part of something Vick views as really fun sport. In both cases, animals suffer for human entertainment. The animal-ethics distinction between Vick's actions and lawful game hunting are murky at best. A first-time offender should go to prison over a murky distinction?

Much more troubling is that the overwhelming majority of Americans who eat meat and poultry -- I'm enthusiastically among them -- are complicit in the systematic cruel treatment of huge numbers of animals. Snickering about this, or saying you're tired of hearing about it, doesn't make it go away. Most animals used for meat experience miserable lives under cruel conditions, including confinement for extended periods in pits of excrement. (Michael Pollan, who enthusiastically consumes meat and fowl, describes the mistreatment in his important new book The Omnivore's Dilemma.) Meat animals don't magically stop living when it's time to become a product; they suffer as they die. One of Vick's dogs was shot, another electrocuted. Gunshots and electrocution are federally approved methods of livestock slaughter, sanctioned by the Department of Agriculture for the killing of cows and pigs. Regulations under the Humane Slaughter Act of 1958 give federal sanction to shooting cows or pigs, or running electrical current through their bodies. Shooting and electrocution are viewed by federal law as humane ways to kill animals that will be consumed. Federal rules also allow slaughterhouses to hit cows in the head with a fast-moving piston that stuns them into semiconsciousness before they are sliced up. Being hit in the head with a powerful piston -- does that sound a bit painful, a bit cruel? It's done to tens of thousands of steers per year, lawfully.

Don't say "eew, gross" about how meat animals are butchered, then return to denouncing Vick. If you're eating a cheeseburger or BLT or steak or pot roast today, there's a good chance you are dining on an animal that was shot or electrocuted. You are complicit. You freely bought the meat, you did not demand Congress strengthen the Humane Slaughter Act. Livestock can be calmed and drugged before being slain. A few slaughterhouses do this, but most don't because it raises costs, and you, the consumer, demand the lowest possible price for your meal. Now about your turkey sub or coq au vin. Federal slaughter regulations apply mainly to large animals, leaving considerable freedom in the killing of fowl. Many poultry slaughterhouses kill chickens by slashing their throats rather than snapping their necks. Snapping the neck kills the bird quickly, ending suffering, but then the heart dies quickly, too. Slashing the throat causes the bird to live in agony for several minutes, heart still beating and pumping blood out of the slash -- and consumers prefer bloodless chicken meat.

Further, the Humane Slaughter Act exempts kosher and halal slaughter. In both traditions, the cow or lamb must be conscious when killed by having its carotid artery, or esophagus and trachea, slashed. The animal bleeds to death, convulsing in agony, as its heart pumps blood, which is viewed as unclean, out of the slashed openings. The delicious pastrami we consumed at a kosher deli, or the wonderfully good beef we could buy at a halal butcher, comes from an animal that suffered as it died.

Yes, Vick broke the law; yes, he arrogantly lied and refused to apologize when first caught; and yes, his actions before and after the dog killings indicate he is one stupid, stupid man. But Vick's lawbreaking was relatively minor compared to animal mistreatment that happens continuously, within the law, at nearly all levels of the meat production industry, and with which all but vegetarians are complicit. There is some kind of mass neurosis at work in the rush to denounce Vick, wag fingers and say he deserved even worse. Society wants to scapegoat Vick to avoid contemplating its own routine, systematic killing of animals. We couldn't all become vegetarians tomorrow: that is not practical. But American society is not even attempting to make the handling of meat animals less brutal, let alone working to transition away from a food-production order in which huge numbers of animals are systematically mistreated, then killed in ways that inflict terror and pain. We won't lift a finger to change the way animals die for us. But we will demand Michael Vick serve prison time to atone for our sins.

Legal note: Vick might be compelled to repay the Falcons a huge amount of bonus money, and will lose $25 million or more in endorsement income. I have no sympathy for his loss of endorsement income: Vick was hired to bring Nike and other companies he endorsed good publicity, and instead brought them bad. But think about the income loss in the calculation of overpunishment of Vick. One or two years in federal prison, and perhaps state prison time if state charges are filed as well; plus $25 million in lost endorsement income and, oh, $50 million in lost or returned NFL income. That's overkill! Often the indirect financial consequences of legal proceedings are worse than the official ones, in the same way that a speeding ticket might cost you $75 but add $1,000 to your annual insurance bill.

In effect, the federal indictment of Vick is resulting in him being fined around $75 million, which is far too much retribution. The legal hang-up is that since 1984, federal courts have been forbidden to consider monetary loss in private life as counting toward punishment. But a year of banishment from the NFL, a guilty plea with suspended sentence and probation (meaning the sentence is imposed if probation is violated), seems plenty of punishment for a first offense by someone who has not harmed another human being. Prison time and a $75 million fine? What Vick did was indecent, but now excessive punishment is being imposed, and two wrongs do not equal one right. Justice, after all, must be tempered with mercy. That's what you would think if you stood in the dock accused.

Hypocrisy note: Look who's advertising on a Web page extolling the cruel crossbow killing of animals for sport -- the NFL. Oh, that Michael Vick, he's evil, he's bad. But buy NFL Shop items to wear when you shoot deer with arrows so they slowly bleed to death!

[Tex]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Moreover, where much is given, much is expected. I'm so sick of these idiot young millionares behaving badly.

Much as it pains me to say "I agree with SU", I agree with SU. Accepting an NFL paycheck and the fame that comes with it (to me) means you're making a social contract with people. You're a role-model and are "expected" to behave as such. If you don't like those constraints being placed on you, get out of the public eye.

Is it unfair to shove those kinds of responsibilities on uneducated rubes like Vick? Perhaps. But no one forced him to sign the contract. And his "life" isn't ruined ... just his pro-NFL career. He'll still be able to get a job somewhere, feed his family, and so on. He just won't get the luxuries that come with stardom.

I'll add parenthetically that I wish we'd treat all stars who engage in such behavior this way ... like those who beat their wives, abuse drugs, and the like. Unfortunately, society is more accepting of some behavior than others.

[jay santos]

I've attended a dog fight and it was an interesting experience.

[Archaea]

Pro sports really are uninteresting because many of the prominent personalities are total dipshits.

[Parrot Head]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Didn't he have any handlers to give him advice about such things?

Is this a TIC question? If not, someone hasn't paid enough attention to the always-important state of celebrity over the past few decades.

I remember a quote a couple of years ago by someone 20-something actress who was talking about her publicist and said, "She's my best friend." Does the paycheck have much to do with that?