The Donaghy situation

[TripletDaddy]

A thought I posted earlier on CB....but not sure why the Yao Ming thing is an issue.

Cube complained about illegal screens. So the league told the refs to crack down on Yao's illegal screens, not his legal ones. In my mind, that is a non-issue. Coaches do the same thing during the course of a game....the refs cant see everything, so the coaches point stuff out and sometims it changes how the game is called.

As for Game 6, anyone who wants to slag on Game 6 please first walk everyone through Game 5, which, uopn replay, showed that the ball last touched Webber. Instead, the kings get the ball, bibby takes it, and hits the three to win at the end of the game.

Should have been lakers 3-2 going into Game 6, not vice versa.

i have no problem thinking that game 6 was a gift to the lakers...because they got robbed at the end of Game 5 on a call.

It is a slippery slope to go down when you selectively point out one game or one call as evidnetiary of conspiracy.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

A thought I posted earlier on CB....but not sure why the Yao Ming thing is an issue.

Cube complained about illegal screens. So the league told the refs to crack down on Yao's illegal screens, not his legal ones. In my mind, that is a non-issue. Coaches do the same thing during the course of a game....the refs cant see everything, so the coaches point stuff out and sometims it changes how the game is called.

As for Game 6, anyone who wants to slag on Game 6 please first walk everyone through Game 5, which, uopn replay, showed that the ball last touched Webber. Instead, the kings get the ball, bibby takes it, and hits the three to win at the end of the game.


Should have been lakers 3-2 going into Game 6, not vice versa.

i have no problem thinking that game 6 was a gift to the lakers...because they got robbed at the end of Game 5 on a call.

It is a slippery slope to go down when you selectively point out one game or one call as evidnetiary of conspiracy.

Pointing to more than 25 free throws by one teamm in one quarter is not slippery at all. It sticks out horribly, unlike one bad (or questioanble) out of bounds call from the game before. I don't like the kings, so I ma not emoitionally invested here, but that game looked bad to me back then, even without little Timmy DOnaghy's story.

Plus, it is easwy to say they were only cracking down on Yao's 'illegal' screens, but the point is that they have trmendous power to influence the game's outcome when they selectively enforce, or more rigidly enforce, any rule against any given player. WHy don' tthey say "watch for illegal screens"? If Donaghy is right, the singled out Yao and that sort of selective hyper-enforcement is improper and could lead to managed outcomes.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

A thought I posted earlier on CB....but not sure why the Yao Ming thing is an issue.

Cube complained about illegal screens. So the league told the refs to crack down on Yao's illegal screens, not his legal ones. In my mind, that is a non-issue. Coaches do the same thing during the course of a game....the refs cant see everything, so the coaches point stuff out and sometims it changes how the game is called.

As for Game 6, anyone who wants to slag on Game 6 please first walk everyone through Game 5, which, uopn replay, showed that the ball last touched Webber. Instead, the kings get the ball, bibby takes it, and hits the three to win at the end of the game.

Should have been lakers 3-2 going into Game 6, not vice versa.

i have no problem thinking that game 6 was a gift to the lakers...because they got robbed at the end of Game 5 on a call.

It is a slippery slope to go down when you selectively point out one game or one call as evidnetiary of conspiracy.

You really think the problem isn't or wasn't more widespread than just Donaghy?

I know through a conversation I had with a retired NBA ref many years ago, that he mentioned the plague of gambling amongst NBA referees long before the Donaghy issue came to light. He told me it was a major problem and also told me that there are many personal vendetta's that certain NBA Refs have against certain players. The Jake O'Donnell vs. Clyde Drexler feud was just one of many.

Why people are trying so hard to suspend their belief in the reality of something like this actually having happened more than they'd care to admit or would like to believe? In my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by creekster

Pointing to more than 25 free throws by one teamm in one quarter is not slippery at all. It sticks out horribly, unlike one bad (or questioanble) out of bounds call from the game before. I don't like the kings, so I ma not emoitionally invested here, but that game looked bad to me back then, even without little Timmy DOnaghy's story.

Plus, it is easwy to say they were only cracking down on Yao's 'illegal' screens, but the point is that they have trmendous power to influence the game's outcome when they selectively enforce, or more rigidly enforce, any rule against any given player. WHy don' tthey say "watch for illegal screens"? If Donaghy is right, the singled out Yao and that sort of selective hyper-enforcement is improper and could lead to managed outcomes.

I already conceded that if Game 6 was given to the Lakers, you have to look at the last call in Game 5, which basically cost the Lakers the game. it was a bad call and replay showed such. No doubt that maybe the refs made it up to the Lakers.

Giving FTs to a team doesnt seal the deal...they still have to make them. In game 2 this year, the celtics had a big FT disparity and a 20 point lead...they almost lost the game in the final seconds.

Nobody disagrees that refs can influence outcomes through their calls and non-calls.

yao wasn't singled out by the league. The team has the right to file a complaint after every game. the complaints get reviewed by the league before the next game. The Mavs had a complaint about Yao, so the league looked at Yao. What is odd about that? Do you have a better, more practical solution for teams to file grievances? I certaintly dont know of one.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

You really think the problem isn't or wasn't more widespread than just Donaghy?

I know through a conversation I had with a retired NBA ref that he mentioned the plague of gambling amongst NBA referees long before the Donaghy issue came to light.

Why people are trying so hard to suspend their belief in the reality of something like this actually having happened more than they'd care to admit or would like to believe, in my opinion, just doesn't make sense.

I am pretty sure more than Tim D bets on games. At least, it would be my guess. But no more than in any other sport.

I am also pretty sure that the league wishes for the higest ratings for every series, esp the Finals.

But I do not think the league works with refs to fix games. Again, if they did, the jazz would never had made the Finals and the Spurs would never had won 4 rings. Those teams are not money makers for the league (not speaking to their talent, they are great teams).

Again, I do not believe in league-wide conspiracy, as in "here is who will win the game tonight..." I do believe that the league tells refs...."hey, yao has been setting illegal screens and the owners may have a point...please crack down on that."

i do not think the league tells refs, "if yao sets a legal screen, call it anyway."

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I am pretty sure more than Tim D bets on games. At least, it would be my guess. But no more than in any other sport.

I am also pretty sure that the league wishes for the higest ratings for every series, esp the Finals.

But I do not think the league works with refs to fix games. Again, if they did, the jazz would never had made the Finals and the Spurs would never had won 4 rings. Those teams are not money makers for the league (not speaking to their talent, they are great teams).

Again, I do not believe in league-wide conspiracy, as in "here is who will win the game tonight..." I do believe that the league tells refs...."hey, yao has been setting illegal screens and the owners may have a point...please crack down on that."

i do not think the league tells refs, "if yao sets a legal screen, call it anyway."

We'll just agree to disagree then.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

We'll just agree to disagree then.

So you believe the league tells refs who should win?

Again, if you do, why dont more marquee teams win rings? Why do we see teams like Detroit and the Spurs and the Nets in the Finals?

Why did the lakers lose to the Jazz two years in a row when the Lakers were clearly the media faves in the WC and a matchup of Lakers/Bulls would have been through the roof? In one of the years the Lakers lost to the jazz, they had 4 All-Stars...Kobe, Shaq, Van Exel, and Jones. Somehow, the league did not fix that.

I would be more inclined to agree if you could explain the glaring inconsistencies that would accompany your assertion, assuming it were true.

maybe I am misunderstanding your belief. How widespread do you feel the conspiracy is?

[cougjunkie]

Remember when NBA refs would sell their first class plane tickets and then fly coach, so they could pocket the difference? This was more than a handful of refs, in fact I believe even Steve Javie was involved in this. Now you may not think it is a huge deal but if they are willing to go through all of that trouble for 200 bucks, what makes you think they wouldnt go to an even further extreme?

I think the David Stern conspiracy theory is nothing but crap, I think the reprimand for fouling out a star player is crap. But I do think their is an unwritten, unspoke rule on how to ref against star players. It is no secret the public knows it, the NBA knows it, the players and coaches know it, if you are really that outraged why do you keep watching?

I will tell you why, because star players drive the NBA moreso than any other sport. Thinking of all the players in the NFL that you would pay money to watch? Ladainian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, maybe Devin Hester, great but they only play half the game. Baseball same thing. In the NBA the star player is front and center all game long, every single thing that happens in the game can be dictated by that particular player and that is what keeps us coming. Whether you like him or not, you tune in to see if Kobe can score 50, if Lebron flirts with a triple double, or if Deron Williams looks like the second coming of John Stockton.

Further evidence look at Barry Bonds homerun chase, people tuned in from all over America to watch him break the record, but according to the Nielsen ratings, the ratings were 800% higher when he was at the plate.

We love the star players, we expect them to get treated differently and if Kobe scored a measly 19 a night we wouldnt tune in to watch.

[TripletDaddy]

Rocky, in re-reading your post, you seem to be focused solely on refs gambling.

On that I definitely agree that the likelihood is high that many refs gamble on games. Sorry if i misunderstood.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by cougjunkie

Remember when NBA refs would sell their first class plane tickets and then fly coach, so they could pocket the difference? This was more than a handful of refs, in fact I believe even Steve Javie was involved in this. Now you may not think it is a huge deal but if they are willing to go through all of that trouble for 200 bucks, what makes you think they wouldnt go to an even further extreme?

I think the David Stern conspiracy theory is nothing but crap, I think the reprimand for fouling out a star player is crap. But I do think their is an unwritten, unspoke rule on how to ref against star players. It is no secret the public knows it, the NBA knows it, the players and coaches know it, if you are really that outraged why do you keep watching?

I will tell you why, because star players drive the NBA moreso than any other sport. Thinking of all the players in the NFL that you would pay money to watch? Ladainian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, maybe Devin Hester, great but they only play half the game. Baseball same thing. In the NBA the star player is front and center all game long, every single thing that happens in the game can be dictated by that particular player and that is what keeps us coming. Whether you like him or not, you tune in to see if Kobe can score 50, if Lebron flirts with a triple double, or if Deron Williams looks like the second coming of John Stockton.

Further evidence look at Barry Bonds homerun chase, people tuned in from all over America to watch him break the record, but according to the Nielsen ratings, the ratings were 800% higher when he was at the plate.

We love the star players, we expect them to get treated differently and if Kobe scored a measly 19 a night we wouldnt tune in to watch.

I agree with this. NBA refs gamble, but so do all other refs of every sport, so not sure why it is such a big deal now...except that Tim D was caught.

A league-wide conspiracy that involves the Commish is simply paranoia.

In all of this talk, nobody has alleged that the players or teams are cheating. So what are they to do when they receive a favorable call? refuse to shoot the FT?