The Donaghy situation

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Again, I do not believe in league-wide conspiracy, as in "here is who will win the game tonight..." I do believe that the league tells refs...."hey, yao has been setting illegal screens and the owners may have a point...please crack down on that."

Is anyone arguing for a league-wide conspiracy that successfully alters the outcome of all key games?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Is anyone arguing for a league-wide conspiracy that successfully alters the outcome of all key games?

Of course that is the implication...a league-wide conspiracy wherein the NBA conspires with refs to have specific teams and players win games.

Maybe I am missing something. What do you think this is all about? what is the angle if not a league-wide conspiracy? It isnt to right the wrong committed against Yao Ming in that one game, that's for sure.

[cougjunkie]

Let me say that if there is a league wide conspiracy to fix games and if David Stern was involved something would have leaked by now. Also if Stern really wanted good ratings he would have fixed every Houston playoff series because the Chinese contingent for Yao would by far outweigh anything The Lakers or Celtics could bring in. His plan to globalize the NBA is no secret so why would he have the Celtics in the finals who have zero foreigners on their team? Unless you count Sam Cassell from Melmac.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Of course that is the implication...a league-wide conspiracy wherein the NBA conspires with refs to have specific teams and players win games.

Maybe I am missing something. What do you think this is all about? what is the angle if not a league-wide conspiracy? It isnt to right the wrong committed against Yao Ming in that one game, that's for sure.

You keep building this straw man. It does not have to be league-wide to be a major problem, nor does it have to involve all of the refs. Nor does it mean that a push by an officiating crew to influence a game is always successful. That is why your earlier list of contrary outcomes proves nothing.

And I guess conspiracy is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I hate the thought of superstars getting soft treatment. Few people would argue that that doesn't happen. The entire question is how far is the league willing to go to influence outcomes?

[cougjunkie]

From Bill Simmons latest article:

A: I swear this happened: For the final shot of the first half, Kobe spotted Salvatore on the right side in front of the Lakers' bench, then drove right so he could be as close as possible to the ref if there was any contact. ... Of course, Salvatore obliged with a quick whistle for him. When a referee is affecting basketball decisions specifically by his particular place on the court, you know he has accomplished something special in life.

Also in the Spurs series, Kobe fought hard through a pick where Bowen was being very physical, getting the ball at the elbow, he palms the ball, turns to the ref and says something about Bowen being physical, then turns pulls up for a jumpshot, Bowen puts a hand in his face and they call a foul. The replayed showed Kobe was not touched.

That is the NBA that the fans want. Jazz fans are in the same boat I have heard the following comments (or similar ones) on numerous occassions.

"Deron will get those calls after a few years in the league"
"Dwill is a superstar he should get that call going to the rim"
"Brewer will be able to play a lot more physical after he earns some respect"

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by cougjunkie

That is the NBA that the fans want. Jazz fans are in the same boat I have heard the following comments (or similar ones) on numerous occassions.

"Deron will get those calls after a few years in the league"
"Dwill is a superstar he should get that call going to the rim"
"Brewer will be able to play a lot more physical after he earns some respect"

Not this Jazz fan. If I want bullshit like that, I will start watching professional wrestling.

Seriously, the WWF should sue the NBA for copying their business model.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You keep building this straw man. It does not have to be league-wide to be a major problem, nor does it have to involve all of the refs. Nor does it mean that a push by an officiating crew to influence a game is always successful. That is why your earlier list of contrary outcomes proves nothing.

And I guess conspiracy is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I hate the thought of superstars getting soft treatment. Few people would argue that that doesn't happen. The entire question is how far is the league willing to go to influence outcomes?

I guess I am intepreting the current media discussion differently.

But if the implications are that, although these behaviors occur, they are not league-wide, nor do they involve all the refs, nor do they always alter the outcomes of games, then I am not sure what the big deal would be. Nor what the big revelation would be.

Before Tim D was busted, did we think refs didnt bet on games? in all sports?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by cougjunkie

From Bill Simmons latest article:

A: I swear this happened: For the final shot of the first half, Kobe spotted Salvatore on the right side in front of the Lakers' bench, then drove right so he could be as close as possible to the ref if there was any contact. ... Of course, Salvatore obliged with a quick whistle for him. When a referee is affecting basketball decisions specifically by his particular place on the court, you know he has accomplished something special in life.

Also in the Spurs series, Kobe fought hard through a pick where Bowen was being very physical, getting the ball at the elbow, he palms the ball, turns to the ref and says something about Bowen being physical, then turns pulls up for a jumpshot, Bowen puts a hand in his face and they call a foul. The replayed showed Kobe was not touched.

That is the NBA that the fans want. Jazz fans are in the same boat I have heard the following comments (or similar ones) on numerous occassions.

"Deron will get those calls after a few years in the league"
"Dwill is a superstar he should get that call going to the rim"
"Brewer will be able to play a lot more physical after he earns some respect"

I have no problem with superstars getting their calls.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

So you believe the league tells refs who should win?

Again, if you do, why dont more marquee teams win rings? Why do we see teams like Detroit and the Spurs and the Nets in the Finals?

Why did the lakers lose to the Jazz two years in a row when the Lakers were clearly the media faves in the WC and a matchup of Lakers/Bulls would have been through the roof? In one of the years the Lakers lost to the jazz, they had 4 All-Stars...Kobe, Shaq, Van Exel, and Jones. Somehow, the league did not fix that.

I would be more inclined to agree if you could explain the glaring inconsistencies that would accompany your assertion, assuming it were true.

maybe I am misunderstanding your belief. How widespread do you feel the conspiracy is?

Yes, I absolutely believe there have been times where the NBA has stepped in and encouraged the refs to skew calls in favor of another team, superstar and/or market.

Do I believe in ALL games? Of course not.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

But I do not think the league works with refs to fix games. Again, if they did, the jazz would never had made the Finals and the Spurs would never had won 4 rings. Those teams are not money makers for the league (not speaking to their talent, they are great teams).

The refs aren't all powerful, they can only nudge here and there. God himself would have had to suit up to get the Lakers past the Jazz in 98.