Der Kaiser calls it quits

[bluegoose]

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11792.0.html

Its kind of sad, reading about the last year of his life. He goes from being a favorite to win the tour de france to retirement in about 6 months. That sure sucks if he is telling the truth that he never cheated. He was always more adament about his innocence from Operation Puerto than Basso was. It appears this may have been his mistake. He probably should have stayed quiet, denied involvement through his agent or spokesperson, and he may have eventually found a team, much like almost all of the guys originally implicated.

That being said, I still think they're all cheaters.

[creekster]

I think it is sad, too. To win the TdF at such a young age and have everyone tell you that you are the next Indurain or Hinault and then to never get over the top again.

Personally, I am not so sure if the Opeeracion Puerto was the complete cause. Instead, I think he lost his stomach for racing. He seemed less and less engaged the last few years and the hassles of testing and dealing with corporate sponsors and staying in shape (and really, all except a very few of us, not including me, has ever been in as good a shape as Ullrich was in bad shape; fat is relative in the cycling world) seemed to get him down. Plus, the last few years of the Tour LA was clearly in his head. Ullrich seemed to practically accept being number two, in which there is no shame, but it robbed him of his potential and he probably had a hard time with that (I realize I am invading MW territory here, but so what?).

Blue, I am also sad that you are convinced the whole lot of them are cheaters. I guess its best that they all cheat than if just some cheat, but I am just not sure if I want to believe it.

[Archaea]

I would like to believe some don't use enhancing agents, but it is hard to believe given the small margins of error if a group starts cheating that all others who wish to be competitive don't.

[SteelBlue]

I have to go with bluegoose on this one. I think they probably all cheat. Unfortunately, I think even the great LA is likely to have cheated. I'm glad it's never been proven, because I hold out some hope that he was clean. But I won't be shocked if down the road we finally learn even he was doping

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

I have to go with bluegoose on this one. I think they probably all cheat. Unfortunately, I think even the great LA is likely to have cheated. I'm glad it's never been proven, because I hold out some hope that he was clean. But I won't be shocked if down the road we finally learn even he was doping

I hope they don't all cheat, but I don't judge them if that's what's required to compete. It makes it a level playing field again. If some are and some are not, then it's an endless game, but if they all are, then it's level again.

The main risk of cheating is harm to the athlete, as the substances currently in use have a severe risk of stroke, so it should be monitored carefully. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be involved in a sport that required it, as that level of manipulation of the body chemistry concerns me for my future.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I hope they don't all cheat, but I don't judge them if that's what's required to complete. It makes it a level playing field again. If some are and some are not, then it's an endless game, but if they all are, then it's level again.

The main risk of cheating is harm to the athlete, as the substances currently in use have a severe risk of stroke, so it should be monitored carefully. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be involved in a sport that required it, as that level of manipulation of the body chemistry concerns me for my future.

THe problem is that they aren't all cheaqting in the same way. You are assuming some sort of blood agent, meaning EPO or some such. There are as many ways to cheat as there are cheaTERS. If you use 'roids in the off-season but no EPo in-season is the field level with someone not using 'roids but using EPO in races? IOW, the playing field is not level and will not be if the drugs aren't used openly. This is really the problem in my mind if one assumes everyone is cheating. As the OP investigation in Spain plays out we may get more information about this.

I do not think everyone cheats, although I am sure everyone at least pushes the limits of cheating. What I am not convinced of, btw, is that those that win don't cheat. That there are cheaters in a sport is no big deal, in the long run. THe problem with cycling, I think, is that most people think that only cheaters are winning and there is doubt as to whether you can win without cheating. THat perception is a long term threat to the sport and is what must be addressed.

[bluegoose]

Originally Posted by creekster

THe problem is that they aren't all cheaqting in the same way. You are assuming some sort of blood agent, meaning EPO or some such. There are as many ways to cheat as there are cheaTERS. If you use 'roids in the off-season but no EPo in-season is the field level with someone not using 'roids but using EPO in races? IOW, the playing field is not level and will not be if the drugs aren't used openly. This is really the problem in my mind if one assumes everyone is cheating. As the OP investigation in Spain plays out we may get more information about this.

I do not think everyone cheats, although I am sure everyone at least pushes the limits of cheating. What I am not convinced of, btw, is that those that win don't cheat. That there are cheaters in a sport is no big deal, in the long run. THe problem with cycling, I think, is that most people think that only cheaters are winning and there is doubt as to whether you can win without cheating. THat perception is a long term threat to the sport and is what must be addressed.

Good points as always creekster.

When I first started to follow professional cycling a few years ago, it just amazed me that a lead as small as 1 minute is a lock going into the last few days of racing and that a 7 minute victory in the Tour was an absolute blowout, probably along the lines of a 63-7 superbowl victory. It really is a sport where a fraction of a percentage separates 1st and 2nd places. Its seems fairly predictable that if 2 guys are essentially equal with talent and training, that the guy that dopes better is going to win. There are of course other factors, such as psychology and mental toughness, but from a physiological standpoint, drugs WILL enhance performance (Thank you Viagra and Cialis for that little catchphrase).

I think most guys are willing to take their chances at getting caught. When a 1% performance improvement is the difference between a yellow jersey and being an "also ran" guy, wouldn't you take the chance? I don;t think that their long-term health concerns are really an issue for most guys. Jose Canseco's book last year made it very clear that most guys think that, if done right, doping is totally safe and harmless. They risk life and limb just entering a race in the first race, so a small possibility of stroke, cardiac infarct or collagen damage is nothing to them. Integrity of the sports also likely gets pushed to the back of their mind, clouded over by the possibility of winning or even making a good pro squad.

What am I trying to say, you might ask. Good question, as I doubt if any of this really makes any sense. Like someone stated earlier, I doubt if everyone in cycling cheats, just the guys that are winning and that can afford it.

[SteelBlue]

Hey goose, do you have a link to that article I gave you a few months back? The one about the freelance writer who takes all the different drugs and reports on their effectiveness? I thought that was fascinating stuff and it made me realize why some do cheat and what they are actually risking. I remember you mentioning that you'd found a link to the article somewhere. I only have the paper copy, but I'd think Creekster, Archaea and a few others would really enjoy it.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Hey goose, do you have a link to that article I gave you a few months back? The one about the freelance writer who takes all the different drugs and reports on their effectiveness? I thought that was fascinating stuff and it made me realize why some do cheat and what they are actually risking. I remember you mentioning that you'd found a link to the article somewhere. I only have the paper copy, but I'd think Creekster, Archaea and a few others would really enjoy it.

Was this the guy that took HGH and his eyesight got better, etc.? I read that article and it is very interesting. If I can find a link I iwll post it.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by creekster

Was this the guy that took HGH and his eyesight got better, etc.? I read that article and it is very interesting. If I can find a link I iwll post it.

Yes, that's the one. Made me want to take HGH.