Black and Mormon

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

It's so tough being among the enlightened few in a church full of darkness. My sympathies.



I don't think the leadership is out of touch with how blacks and converts feel; in fact, I'd wager they know quite a bit more than you do about it. And I don't think it's simple "pride" that prevents them from self-sacrificing to atone for the sins of earlier prophets.



Truly, this statement is uncalled for.

You "think" they are more in touch? What is your evidence?

The website by Black Mormons and the evidence from Marlin Jensen suggests even our beloved President Hinckley lacked the insight into that community.

My evidence are those statements and my own limited contacts within that community.

A testimony which you derive from your association with those men is not evidence.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

It's so tough being among the enlightened few in a church full of darkness. My sympathies.

And yet you come to us again and again to help you sand off your sharp edges. ;-)

[Tex]

Just to be fair (and I'm really trying to be fair), let's see if I can sum up the general non-Tex opinion on this:

- The priesthood ban's exact origin is unclear, but likely grew out of the racist sentiment of early church leaders, including Brigham Young and others.

- The policy remained in place for decades by the continued racist sympathies of church leadership.

- God permitted his church leadership to continue the ban because: it wasn't important then/he didn't mind/a policy of non-interference in his mortal leadership (take your pick). Did I miss one?

- The ban was only rescinded once the last remaining outspoken racists were gone. The revelation to rescind was not so much a revelation as it was a confirmation of a decision already made by the remaining leadership.

- The lack of explanation 30 years later is an outgrowth of pride/embarrassment/ignorance/head-in-the-sand (pick one) behavior on the part of the current leadership.

- Someday when the current generation of leadership is replaced by the next, the church will admit the true racist, non-divine origins of the ban, and make peace with that chapter of history.

---------------------
How'd I do? Open questions I have that remain unanswered by this narrative:

- How to explain the petitions to God for the ban's recinsion by at least McKay and possibly others.

- How to reconcile the "true" origins of the ban (prophet's racism) with the need for and reception of a revelation.

[UtahDan]

Tex, I like you. But I wonder how you are able to internally reconcile the fact that you are an intelligent, articulate person with your belief that you are constantly mischaracterized by everyone. It seems to be like you would be forced into thinking that most people are stupid.

I do think your ideas aren't given fair treatment all of the time, but I also think that you like the ivory tower. In other words, when faced with the practical or logical consequences of many of your positions (which you don't like) you default to the belief that somehow you were misunderstood because you know the macro makes sense but you don't like the micro.

Maybe I have it all wrong, but can everyone have you wrong all the time?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Tex

Just to be fair (and I'm really trying to be fair), let's see if I can sum up the general non-Tex opinion on this:

- The priesthood ban's exact origin is unclear, but likely grew out of the racist sentiment of early church leaders, including Brigham Young and others.

- The policy remained in place for decades by the continued racist sympathies of church leadership.

- God permitted his church leadership to continue the ban because: it wasn't important then/he didn't mind/a policy of non-interference in his mortal leadership (take your pick). Did I miss one?

- The ban was only rescinded once the last remaining outspoken racists were gone. The revelation to rescind was not so much a revelation as it was a confirmation of a decision already made by the remaining leadership.

- The lack of explanation 30 years later is an outgrowth of pride/embarrassment/ignorance/head-in-the-sand (pick one) behavior on the part of the current leadership.

- Someday when the current generation of leadership is replaced by the next, the church will admit the true racist, non-divine origins of the ban, and make peace with that chapter of history.

---------------------
How'd I do? Open questions I have that remain unanswered by this narrative:

- How to explain the petitions to God for the ban's recinsion by at least McKay and possibly others.

- How to reconcile the "true" origins of the ban (prophet's racism) with the need for and reception of a revelation.

You forgot Tex is evil.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Tex, I like you. But I wonder how you are able to internally reconcile the fact that you are an intelligent, articulate person with your belief that you are constantly mischaracterized by everyone. It seems to be like you would be forced into thinking that most people are stupid.

I do think your ideas aren't given fair treatment all of the time, but I also think that you like the ivory tower. In other words, when faced with the practical or logical consequences of many of your positions (which you don't like) you default to the belief that somehow you were misunderstood because you know the macro makes sense but you don't like the micro.

Maybe I have it all wrong, but can everyone have you wrong all the time?

At the risk of being overly vain ...

If my words are more often distorted than others, it's because I represent a minority (and unpopular) view, and as such what I say gets treated like carefully worded Congressional depositions. Attempts to clarify are usually showcased as "backpedalling" or "getting my ass kicked." There is no such thing as the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not really complaining about it. I choose to come here; no one forces me. But you shouldn't be surprised to find me being pre-emptively defensive, for that reason.

Do I like the ivory tower? Sure, I can get didactic. Condescending. Typically it's in reaction to someone else. What I offer in fundamentalism to this site, others have in elitism. Those two are destined to clash.

It's not that I don't allow others might have different opinions, by the way. I don't begrudge your, or Lebowski's, or Arch's desire to see the church speak out on this issue more. I just disagree with it. (And you'll notice, I did so politely to start.) It may well be that Marlin Jensen wishes the church would offer more clarification on it--in fact, you all may be right in line with his thinking.

But I doubt you would ever under any circumstance of any kind, find him characterizing President Hinckley's decision not to as "pride" or "cowardice" or "ignorance" or anything else. He'd be more respectful than that, and I expect as much from the believers here.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Tex

JOpen questions I have that remain unanswered by this narrative:

- How to explain the petitions to God for the ban's recinsion by at least McKay and possibly others.

is it possible that Mckay didnt recognize God's answer on these repeated petitions? Yes he wouldnt be the first prophet who didnt listen to God.

Could it be that Mckay's was political with the other brethren because he knew some of them wouldn't accept it? He knew that it wasnt a big deal because most of the people in the church were white anyways. Why bring up a seemingly big change when it affects hardly any people in the church.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Tex

At the risk of being overly vain ...

Don't worry, it wasn't overly vain, it was just garden variety vanity.



Couldn't help myself.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I also think that you like the ivory tower. In other words, when faced with the practical or logical consequences of many of your positions (which you don't like) you default to the belief that somehow you were misunderstood because you know the macro makes sense but you don't like the micro.

Great analysis of Tex.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm not really complaining about it. I choose to come here; no one forces me.

Ah, c'mon Tex admit it, you like it here as much as we do.