The current direction of BYU Provo

[Colly Wolly]

If I graduated from BYU, does that make me part of the Church's elite?

[MikeWaters]

If you are posting on this board, you are likely among the financially elite of the church.

i.e. you have a computer, you have electricity, you likely live in the USA, you are college-educated, and have leisure time.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what is an excellent undergrad institution? I guess that means you have great teachers, who are not leaders in their field and don't do research, but somehow despite that have gained a great understanding and are able to teach it.

And oh well, if there is no exposure to good research experience when you are an undergrad.

I just don't buy the model. You are either after excellence or you are not.

It just means that the board of trustees has decided that the church does not have the resources (or that it would not be a wise use of resources) to build BYU as a top-tier research school. Instead, they are attempting to get a quality educational experience to as many students as possible.

I have known faculty who have come to BYU from other schools and commented that the focus on pedagogy and excellence in teaching is truly refreshing.

Also you seem to have a pre-conceived bias that there is little or no research at BYU. That simply is not true. While BYU doesn't pretend to be MIT, it does expect each faculty member to excel in scholarship. Some of the older faculty were hired under different expectations, but they are retiring now and being replaced with young faculty who must "publish or perish". And many of them are doing quite well. How can this happen at a primarily undergrad school? BYU has a high student to faculty ratio but they provide strong funding for TA support so that most faculty shouldn't need to spend all their time grading papers. Also, in recent years there have been millions in new funding for supporting undergraduate research. You can't build a strong research program solely with undergrads, but you can staff labs and do a lot of the "grunt" work associated with research by involving undergrads, who often have a rewarding experience. And given the high quality of undergrads at BYU, there is typically a big pool of strong candidates for the few grad student positions that are available.

Once again, BYU doesn't pretend to be a top-tier research school. But you simply cannot survive at BYU anymore without doing some scholarship and research. I have known a few pretty decent faculty at BYU who have been sent packing at their six-year reviews due to poor performance in research. I have also seen a few professors given the door due to poor teaching, in spite of decent research; something that is quite rare at most schools.

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what is an excellent undergrad institution? I guess that means you have great teachers, who are not leaders in their field and don't do research, but somehow despite that have gained a great understanding and are able to teach it.

And oh well, if there is no exposure to good research experience when you are an undergrad.

I just don't buy the model. You are either after excellence or you are not.

The idea that just because someone is a great researcher or a "leader in their field" means they can be a good teacher is laughable. I've had professors that were brilliant researchers and leaders in their field but had the communication skills and teaching skills of a gnat. The corollary (i.e. the idea that just because someone that isn't a "leader in their field" or isn't a great researcher is unqualified to teach undergraduates about the basics of a subject) is also fallacious.

Excellence in research does not necessarily equate to excellence in undergraduate education. The traits of being a great researcher and a great teacher are neither mutually exclusive nor mutually inclusive.

I'm of the opinion that the concept of "The Academy" is pretty much bullshit. Hmmm, perhaps that's why I was largely unsuccessful as a student.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If you are posting on this board, you are likely among the financially elite of the church.

I'd like to be the first to welcome SeattleUte and Non Sequitur back to the fold.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It just means that the board of trustees has decided that the church does not have the resources (or that it would not be a wise use of resources) to build BYU as a top-tier research school. Instead, they are attempting to get a quality educational experience to as many students as possible.

I have known faculty who have come to BYU from other schools and commented that the focus on pedagogy and excellence in teaching is truly refreshing.

Also you seem to have a pre-conceived bias that there is little or no research at BYU. That simply is not true. While BYU doesn't pretend to be MIT, it does expect each faculty member to excel in scholarship. Some of the older faculty were hired under different expectations, but they are retiring now and being replaced with young faculty who must "publish or perish". And many of them are doing quite well. How can this happen at a primarily undergrad school? BYU has a high student to faculty ratio but they provide strong funding for TA support so that most faculty shouldn't need to spend all their time grading papers. Also, in recent years there have been millions in new funding for supporting undergraduate research. You can't build a strong research program solely with undergrads, but you can staff labs and do a lot of the "grunt" work associated with research by involving undergrads, who often have a rewarding experience. And given the high quality of undergrads at BYU, there is typically a big pool of strong candidates for the few grad student positions that are available.

Once again, BYU doesn't pretend to be a top-tier research school. But you simply cannot survive at BYU anymore without doing some scholarship and research. I have known a few pretty decent faculty at BYU who have been sent packing at their six-year reviews due to poor performance in research. I have also seen a few professors given the door due to poor teaching, in spite of decent research; something that is quite rare at most schools.

appreciate your insights as well.

[MikeWaters]

why emphasize undergraduate research? because lack of research puts undergrad students at BYU at a competitive disadvantage. I applied for some kind of undergrad research grant. I can't remember what it was. I didn't get it. But if that's the kind of thing they are focusing on, it's nothing but particle board where you need strong oak.

I don't think schools will be veering towards the BYU model. It's failed model. Rather BYU is creeping towards the standard model. This is evidence that eventually they will adopt the standard model, or give up on any sort of excellence whatsoever.

Looking back, I had some really terrible professors. They were nice guys, they could teach the material (largely straight from the textbook). But they in no way could prepare the students or even really advise them for success in academia. I've looked at some of the credentials of the new hires in my dept. They look to be mid-tier folks. Actually doing some research, but not top-tier stuff. Of course, this is a big improvement over the deadwood.

I guess if the current leadership continues, BYU will be the place where the faculty read the textbooks and try to catch up, rather than writing the textbooks. Meaning they are increasingly peripheral in the pursuit of knowledge. Which is kind of sad. But then again, I don't think the church should be in the decision of designing bridges, researching antibiotics, or building the next buckyball. But who am I?

If I could do it over again, I would not have picked my major (microbio), and might not choose to go to BYU. BYU's true resource are the overqualified students it receives. It's too bad they can't capitalize on it. And it's too bad the Mormon movers and shakers know from the outset that BYU is not the ideal place to practice their craft, due to lack of institutional support.

[MikeWaters]

btw BYU could pretend to be MIT as well as a Frenchman could pretend to be Genghis Khan.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If you are posting on this board, you are likely among the financially elite of the church.

i.e. you have a computer, you have electricity, you likely live in the USA, you are college-educated, and have leisure time.

Cool. I never thought of myself in this way before.

[RockyBalboa]

So they have a mission of obeying the honor code and providing a good education.

What a travesty.