The current direction of BYU Provo

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

why emphasize undergraduate research? because lack of research puts undergrad students at BYU at a competitive disadvantage.

And yet BYU grads tend to be highly successful in top-notch grad schools. And every year BYU has to turn away a larger and larger number of students. It's not nearly as dire as you portray it.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't think schools will be veering towards the BYU model. It's failed model. Rather BYU is creeping towards the standard model. This is evidence that eventually they will adopt the standard model, or give up on any sort of excellence whatsoever.

Obviously, you believe that the only legit model is the top-tier research school model. In reality, there are only 30 or so truly top-tier research schools. Then there is a huge middle. According to US News and World Report (I figure you won't take my word for it), BYU is somewhere in that middle.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Looking back, I had some really terrible professors. They were nice guys, they could teach the material (largely straight from the textbook). But they in no way could prepare the students or even really advise them for success in academia. I've looked at some of the credentials of the new hires in my dept. They look to be mid-tier folks. Actually doing some research, but not top-tier stuff. Of course, this is a big improvement over the deadwood.

That's too bad. Like I said, it varies a lot from dept. to dept.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

But then again, I don't think the church should be in the decision of designing bridges, researching antibiotics, or building the next buckyball. But who am I?

You seem to be a bit schizophrenic here. Which is it? Should BYU try to be a top-tier research school, or fold up the tent and quit?

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If I could do it over again, I would not have picked my major (microbio), and might not choose to go to BYU. BYU's true resource are the overqualified students it receives. It's too bad they can't capitalize on it.

I will agree with you there. BYU gets better students than they deserve. At the same time, they let in 30,000 students and turn away many more. There is a big demand.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

And it's too bad the Mormon movers and shakers know from the outset that BYU is not the ideal place to practice their craft, due to lack of institutional support.

This comment makes me chuckle. These "movers and shakers" are among the best and brightest and yet they are too stupid to know what they are getting themselves into. They know exactly what they are getting into, and many of them choose to be there anyway.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

btw BYU could pretend to be MIT as well as a Frenchman could pretend to be Genghis Khan.

That's precisely why they never pretend such a thing. What's your point?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

So they have a mission of obeying the honor code and providing a good education.

What a travesty.

Sounds like low standards.

Obey 1950s Honor Code, and provide "good education" whatever that is, but not research.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Sounds like low standards.

Obey 1950s Honor Code, and provide "good education" whatever that is, but not research.

Yeah good education and living the honor code. What crappy standards. I hope if I ever have kids they don't aspire to a good education and living the honor code.....

[MikeWaters]

I think BYU should strive for excellence at all levels.

I also think the church should not own or subsidize BYU.

I don't see how these are contradictory.

I've already posted on CB what sort of federal research funding BYU gets. I don't know what you define as mid-tier, but triple digits isn't mid tier in my book.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Yeah good education and living the honor code. What crappy standards. I hope if I ever have kids they don't aspire to a good education and living the honor code.....

I hope my kids don't aspire to live just the temple entrance standards, but rather that that is second nature, which so far it is.

No, if that is all they aspire to do, they are doing poorly. It shouldn't be an aspiration but a fact of life.

And they should strive to be the best students within their fields of study.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

Agreed. There's a lot more emphasis on living the honor code than on learning.

I don't know where you guys are going with this. BYU is a fine institution. It is designed to be a great undergraduate institution that prepares people for graduate work elsewhere (with a few exceptions, like law).

It does its work well. Its students are in HIGH demand. They are well-prepared for graduate work at other universities, and routinely fill out many slots in the elite university graduate programs. Indeed, they are overrepresented in such programs.

They go overboard with the honor code, yes. But people go there knowing what they are getting. I would like to see them be more open to opposing ideas in the classroom, but I think they do very well with what they are trying to accomplish.

[MikeWaters]

I guess what I may be getting to is the hard sciences. Maybe BYU is just fine as a liberal arts school. That's not a terribly difficult standard. Many schools do just that with zero research.

But when it comes to science, I think that's where the lack of research hurts the undergrads. There are fewer research opportunities, and in my experience, many of these are token opportunities. Not the kind that really exposes you to what you may eventually do. I was lucky enough to get outside research experiences during the summer, that BYU could never have provided. These led to two undergrad publications that would have never occurred had all my research experience occurred at BYU.

Do many BYU students go on to great schools and success in the hard sciences? Yes. But I think it is because of the quality students.

And then when these quality students succeed in graduate school (in the hard sciences), are they going to come back to BYU? Not likely. Is this good for BYU? In my opinion, no it is not.

Is it good for Mormondom that they dont' return? Maybe yes. Broaden and strengthen the diaspora.

Maybe there really is a method behind the madness. Keep BYU mediocre to deepen and broaden the diaspora, LOL.

[MikeWaters]

As to BYU being mid-tier.

BYU is ranked 242 in federal research dollars, and 212 in overall research spending.

I don't think I could even tell you the names of more than 150 universities.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I don't know where you guys are going with this. BYU is a fine institution. It is designed to be a great undergraduate institution that prepares people for graduate work elsewhere (with a few exceptions, like law).

It does its work well. Its students are in HIGH demand. They are well-prepared for graduate work at other universities, and routinely fill out many slots in the elite university graduate programs. Indeed, they are overrepresented in such programs.

They go overboard with the honor code, yes. But people go there knowing what they are getting. I would like to see them be more open to opposing ideas in the classroom, but I think they do very well with what they are trying to accomplish.

Sure, it's a fine institution. But it could be even better.