So has anybody discussed the Adam God theory recently?

[MikeWaters]

when someone would talk of something truly miraculous, it will always got my attention growing up. Like a woman testifying that during baptisms for the dead for an ancestor, a person showed up then suddenly disappeared (the person for whom the ordinance was performed)....things like that. Or casting out demons.

In church last week, a woman testified that when her granddaughter (like 3 years old) came across her husband, who had just died on the floor, she came up and told grandma "Grandpa is on the floor. The angels were there and told me he went to Heaven." Reminded me of things I had heard before.

Part of it is the whole pearls before swine thing. People may be having experiences, but they are not sharing them, because they don't feel it is necessarily appropriate. But that begs the question, in Joseph Smith's time what was appropriate to share or what one might be moved to share might be different than now...

[fusnik11]

an interesting question....

the miracles have become a family only idea.

we dont share the true miracles that happen but we share the fluff that happens to us in testimony meeting...

casting out demons, seeing spirits, visions, speaking in tongues, etc has all been grouped in a sort of cultish occurence that members of the church shy away from.....

[Archaea]

but I believe I would only share them with my kids cuz everybody else would think me nuts.

[SeattleUte]

I forgot what it is, and I would have told you I couldn't care less. But now you've kind of piqued my curiosity. What is it?

[SteelBlue]

Growing up in the church, testimony meeting and sacrament meetings in general were filled with miracle type stories. This just is no longer the case. At least not with the normal membership. I think for the most part it is due to the brethren making an effort to tell us not to share really spiritual experiences except with family etc...

Let's face it though, many of the folks who share these experiences nowadays are on the crazy side. Let me just share 2 such experiences that were told over the pulpit last Sunday. The first was a man who told us that he forgot to buy gas on Saturday and needed to drive 60 miles on Sunday. He said his tank was empty but he prayed and the Lord told him he'd make it. So he drove the 60 miles on nothing but spiritual gas. Then, (here's the kicker) he says he made it and "when I filled up, the tank held 2 more gallons than the book says it could, it was truly a miracle". It was all I could do to contain my laughter.

The next story was shared by a gentleman who has a penchant for dramatic testimonies. That, and he is certifiably insane. He got up to tell us that had the Lord not protected him when his tire blew at 60 mph his car would have flipped and all inside would have died. He said "I know that the Lord and Joseph Smith protected me that day." Bottom line, I think the Brethren are right on this issue. Better to keep your miraculous stories in the family.

[MikeWaters]

Yup, it's funny how the crazies can take over. There was an older lady in one of my old wards (actually the mother of a famous BYU athlete). She was getting senile I think, and would make comments in Sunday School. At first she would be on topic, then suddenly she would be telling her life story, how she met her husband, how their lives went, how he died. She was loud, and never paused. So the teacher would just stand there sort of dumbfounded. I was cracking up.

I think there is a danger however in not sharing things, that eventually their existence sort of fades from institutional memory....

[SteelBlue]

Mike Waters wrote

We need to get Dan over here. I know he has less time now. But even when he did have time he was constantly korihored.

Dan is awesome, I hope he makes it over here. The last evolution debate on cougarboard was hilarious to read because Dan just knows his history so well. When he told posters that there had been debate amongst some apostles on the subject, few posters could believe or accept it. It actually led to a Korihor. I just happened to be reading a book that made mention of the exact subject so I knew that Dan was correct.

[MikeWaters]

We had some technical issues with Dan's account that I've finally sorted out. He emailed me today. I expect to see him here soon.

[Dan]

This board is sort of nice to be able to come over and discuss religious topics.

Catblue ... here is the readers digest version of the Adam-God concept (in general, those who believe it call it the "Adam-God Doctrine" and those who do not call it the "Adam-God Theory"). Notice, I call it the "Adam-God concept".

Begin summary:

The man Adam, from the garden, is Michael. Michael is our "Heavenly Father" (yes, with exactly the same meaning we have when we use the term). Adam was an exalted man from another, prior earth, and progressed to the point of becoming a God. "Adam" is more than a name with many meanings. It is also a title for a God ready to create earths and send his children thereto.

Adam was once like us. He progressed through multiple mortal probations and eternities until he was ready to act as THE only begotten son, the annointed one, IOW, the Christ, for the benefit of his other spirit brethren and children of Adam's father, Jehovah. Adam fulfilled his mission as the Christ, thereby becoming the spiritual father to his spiritual brethren for whom he performed his sacrifice. (Notice how Jesus Christ becomes our spiritual father and we are spiritually begotten by him when we accept his atonement in our life, and Jesus therefore, in scripture is called our father. Jesus is the father - to us, among other meanings - as well as the son - to his father, among other meanings.)

After one completes a mission successfully as a Christ, he is then able to act as "Adam" , or a "God the father" and create worlds and send his children there (those who were spiritually begotten or born to him while fulfilling his mission as Christ to his brethren). Adam then holds a council before the creation of the world where he will send his children and a Christ is chosen from his children for that world. Adam creates world after world any time one of his children is ready to serve as a Christ on such a new world.

Focusing on Adam's temporal existence, Jehovah was his Christ when adam was an unexalted mortal. Jehovah became an "Adam" and Adam was ready to become a Christ. Adam then served in that capacity after which he was advanced to an "Adam".

As an exalted God, Adam had power over death. Adam, like Jesus, has the power to lay down his life and take it up again. That is how Adam, as an exalted God and father to his children spiritually begotten to him, was able to condescend (or "fall"), willingly, from his exalted position to a mortal position, to also become the literal father of mankind in the flesh as well. When his time was at an end on earth, he left. He still had the power to lay down his life and take it up again.

The idea is that any one of us can progress to the point that we can be worthy of the calling of a Christ and then advance to the function of an "Adam". It would take a great many eternities and mortal probations to get to that point though.

The main problems LDS have with this concept are:
1. Belief that man only experiences ONE mortality and then are FOREVER consigned to an eternal kingdom.
2. The scriptural concept that is it appointed to man to die once, with body separated from spirit.

The conter arguments to these problems are that man only does die once in each eternal existence (with an eternal existence defined as one eternal round from a pre-existence to earth life to death and resurrection. The kingdom of glory becomes the pre-existence for one more eternal round). We then choose to "fall" in our next mortality and probation (it is always our choice to undertake a mortality to attempt to progress further).

In a nut shell, it is pure FACT that just about all of the brethren from Brigham (and quite possibly Joseph, too, IMO) through the Joseph F. Smith presidency believed in all or most of what I have explained above. Many still probably believed thereafter and do to this day, but you cannot voice belief in it if you are an influential member or leader or you will be excommunicated as the concept has been disavowed.

But that is a decent summary.

[SteelBlue]

A lot of that stuff I'd never heard before. Dan, I've always thought that the theory came from one obscure Brigham Young quote. Where else can I read about it?