Bob Millet on grace

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Nope.

See your problem will be solved once you stop being wrong about your thoughts on bumjugging Aaron.

And death is the only solution to your problem.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

A few months back I came across this chapter by LDS apostle and popular educator John Widtsoe. I'd love to know what you all think of it:

Aaron,
Widstoe was saying salvation needs to be earned the same way which Christ said your righteousness has to exceed the scribes' pharisees' to enter the kingdom of God (Matt 5:20)---YOU CAN'T DO IT!

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

And death is the only solution to your problem.

And we wonder why women don't want to play here. Thanks guys for the illuminating dialogue.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

And death is the only solution to your problem.

Repeating what the Doctor told you before your sex change operation is plagiarism.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Repeating what the Doctor told you before your sex change operation is plagiarism.

All right, you two. Break it up.

Congratulations, il Padrino-- you win this debate. Next question, please.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by All-American

All right, you two. Break it up.

Congratulations, il Padrino-- you win this debate. Next question, please.

Heh. I think Bob Millet would be proud to have his name attached to this thread.

[Sleeping in EQ]

We have been down this road many times. Many Mormons would be well served to pay more attention to Paul, and particularly Romans 3 and 8-10. I don't know of anywhere else in scripture where such a stinging indictment of works can be found.

Still, citing Paul and calling it a day does not meet my standard of searching the scriptures for truth. I'm convinced that heterodoxy (yes, even heresy according to conventional Christian dogma) is all over the NT.

The way Paul discusses grace and works, and the way the Gospel of Matthew and Epistle of James discuss grace and works, has never been reconciled to my satisfaction. Instead I am satisfied with faction, as it were, or with striving to understand how different understandings are more salient at particular moments.

The words from 1 Peter 2:1-2 are powerful:

Rid yourselves, therefore, of all malice, and all guile, insincerity, envy, and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation.

Here's just a sampling of passages detailing what the NT teaches about salvation. I find it to be much less narrow than the usual dogma. With the exception of the Hebrews 5 passage, "save" (or its variation) is derived from the same Greek word, "sozo":

Ephesians 2:8: "...by grace are ye saved through faith..."

Romans 8:24: "...we are saved by hope..."

Acts 16:31: "...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."

1 Corinthians 1:21: "... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Titus 3:5: "...he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

1 Peter 3:21: "...baptism doth also now save us..."

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."

Romans 10:9: "...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

James 1:21: "...receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

Matthew 24:13: "...he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

1 Timothy 2:15: "...she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

2 Thessalonians 2:10: "...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Hebrews 5:9: "...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

1 Corinthians 5:5: "...deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

We have been down this road many times. Many Mormons would be well served to pay more attention to Paul, and particularly Romans 3 and 8-10. I don't know of anywhere else in scripture where such a stinging indictment of works can be found.

Still, citing Paul and calling it a day does not meet my standard of searching the scriptures for truth. I'm convinced that heterodoxy (yes, even heresy according to conventional Christian dogma) is all over the NT.

The way Paul discusses grace and works, and the way the Gospel of Matthew and Epistle of James discuss grace and works, has never been reconciled to my satisfaction. Instead I am satisfied with faction, as it were, or with striving to understand how different understandings are more salient at particular moments.

The words from 1 Peter 2:1-2 are powerful:

Rid yourselves, therefore, of all malice, and all guile, insincerity, envy, and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation.

Here's just a sampling of passages detailing what the NT teaches about salvation. I find it to be much less narrow than the usual dogma. With the exception of the Hebrews 5 passage, "save" (or its variation) is derived from the same Greek word, "sozo":

Ephesians 2:8: "...by grace are ye saved through faith..."

Romans 8:24: "...we are saved by hope..."

Acts 16:31: "...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."

1 Corinthians 1:21: "... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Titus 3:5: "...he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

1 Peter 3:21: "...baptism doth also now save us..."

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."

Romans 10:9: "...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

James 1:21: "...receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

Matthew 24:13: "...he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

1 Timothy 2:15: "...she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

2 Thessalonians 2:10: "...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Hebrews 5:9: "...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

1 Corinthians 5:5: "...deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What do you mean by "much less narrow than the usual dogma"?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by jay santos

What do you mean by "much less narrow than the usual dogma"?

The "usual dogma" (perhaps better phrased as "to be typically dogmatic") being to simply select a verse (or series of verses) that already agrees with one's views (or that appears to) and then to ignore, dissemble, or otherwise dismiss contrasting passages (and in the extreme, to alter their translations). The NT contains a collection of perspectives about salvation, some of which are not wholly compatible with each other.

In excess, the practice of trying to conform the diverse ideas in the NT down to a consistent dogma has actually lead to textual changes. As one example, today's KJV has Mark 10:18 saying, "And Jesus said onto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, That is, God."

The 1611 KJV said (with the 1611 spelling), "And Iesus said vnto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God."