06-09-2008, 02:46 PM | #21 | |
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06-09-2008, 02:46 PM | #22 | |
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06-09-2008, 02:47 PM | #23 |
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06-09-2008, 02:51 PM | #24 |
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Why? Because you say so? That's pure nonsense.
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Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα |
06-09-2008, 02:51 PM | #25 |
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06-09-2008, 02:52 PM | #26 | |
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Wrong. I have the entire Restoration. |
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06-09-2008, 02:56 PM | #27 | |
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What I am suggesting, and what is consistent, I think, with Elder Roberts, is that responsibility for racism of this kind in the Church probably does not belong much more on Church leadership (perhaps no more at all) than it does on every member who went along with it. That leaders cultivate an unscriptural notion of obedience to them, and that the body of the Church went along with it, does not get Church members off of the hook. They should have exercised their own moral judgment (a main theme of Jesus' teachings throughout the Gospels is that he did not simply do what Moses told him, but rather took moral responsibility on himself. If we are to follow him, we should do likewise). Church members also should have been reading their scriptures. Its amazing how many scriptures very much go against the grain of the priesthood ban. Other scriptures teach about the power of common consent, about the members' responsibility in a system of checks and balances (See D&C 107 and elsewhere). Church members also should have paid more attention to some of the leaders who tried to head off worship of the leadership. These leaders were less strident, and sometimes less charismatic than those around whom a cult of personality was so readily built, but they should have been listened to nonetheless. One of these leaders who tried to resist the conformist nonsense in his own way was J. Golden Kimball. It's a tragedy that he's only known as an irreverent jokester, and I wonder if someone didn't want it that way. Go to Mosiah 29. If the people have a voice, the responsibility is on them. When they don't (and Noah is cited as an example by Mosiah), the "blame" is upon the head of the king (or leader). Abinidai and Samuel the Lamanite, had, so far as the text reveals, no church leadership whatsoever. There isn't even evidence that they held the priesthood (which wouldn't be unusual in an OT context, when prophets and temple priests were often not the same people). As far as we know, those two are just people who took responsibility on themselves. The hierarchy and priesthood leadership stuff that Church members so readily try to impose on these circumstances simply isn't born out by the text. I think members of the Church still have a voice, they've just been shamed and brow-beaten into not using it because leaders find it inconvenient.
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. Last edited by Sleeping in EQ; 06-09-2008 at 03:12 PM. |
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06-09-2008, 02:56 PM | #28 | |
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The argument one might make is JS took care of the needs of our dispensation and there is no further need for revelation in any substantial quantities. That we should rely on the BoM and the D&C and the general guidance of our leaders. Well, that is the same argument that protestant Christians make about the Bible. Another argument might say that it is because of our wickedness that we do not receive more revelation. Now, I am not apostate, I do believe the Prophet/President receives inspiration, but I don't think it is nearly like Joseph Smith. GBH himself said that he received revelation through prayer and the Holy Ghost, which is exactly how most of us receive revelation. JS's experience seemed to go beyond that. What I definitely DO NOT believe, is that God/Jesus appeared to any prophet and said "continue the priesthood ban". God is asking mud to become gold, and it isnt' an easy process. The boat moves onward, but sometimes the seas are rough, and sometimes the boat takes on water, and sometimes a course correction occurs. |
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06-09-2008, 02:57 PM | #29 |
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Arch's timeline of God:
Inifinity BC - 34 AD: Very active 34 - 1820: ZZZZzzzzzzzz 1820 - (somewhere between 1830 and 1844, depending on when Joseph strayed too far away): Active 1844 - Present: ZZzzzzzzzz |
06-09-2008, 03:00 PM | #30 |
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