cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board  

Go Back   cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board > non-Sports > Religious Studies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2008, 10:19 PM   #1
ERCougar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,589
ERCougar is on a distinguished road
Default Darron Smith

After listening to the John Dehlin's interview with Darron Smith, I'm now firmly in Adam and SU's camp--the Church should (and will, IMO) issue a formal apology to African-Americans for the priesthood exclusion rule and the racist statements of some of its leaders. It's more than a symbolic move. Black Saints should not have to bear the burden of defending our racist past because we refuse to publicly acknowledge our mistakes. We've done it (to a degree) on the Mountain Meadows Massacre; it's time to move on to the most serious stain on our history, IMO.
ERCougar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008, 10:30 PM   #2
ChinoCoug
Senior Member
 
ChinoCoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NOVA
Posts: 2,905
ChinoCoug is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
After listening to the John Dehlin's interview with Darron Smith, I'm now firmly in Adam and SU's camp--the Church should (and will, IMO) issue a formal apology to African-Americans for the priesthood exclusion rule and the racist statements of some of its leaders. It's more than a symbolic move. Black Saints should not have to bear the burden of defending our racist past because we refuse to publicly acknowledge our mistakes. We've done it (to a degree) on the Mountain Meadows Massacre; it's time to move on to the most serious stain on our history, IMO.
I spent half my mission among African Americans, and this thing isn't the foremost thing on AA members' minds. Once in a while they'll ask missionaries about the ban, but our conversion rates among AAs and Africans continues to soar. Blacks are very spiritual and a vast majority of them would join the Church in spite of this concern.
__________________
https://youtu.be/iWxwAcpuIv4
ChinoCoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008, 10:53 PM   #3
Goatnapper'96
Recruiting Coordinator/Bosom Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,412
Goatnapper'96 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoCoug View Post
I spent half my mission among African Americans, and this thing isn't the foremost thing on AA members' minds. Once in a while they'll ask missionaries about the ban, but our conversion rates among AAs and Africans continues to soar. Blacks are very spiritual and a vast majority of them would join the Church in spite of this concern.
The apology isn't for them it is for Adam and Mike and the rest who are willing to impale themselves upon poles when the Y plays at WYO in 2009, the 40th year anniversary of the Black 14 incident.

Allah Akbar, for without WYO getting the hell out of the way who knows if the train Lavell built would have gotten on the tracks.

The key is that with respect to Church history the academics have replaced the profits!
__________________
She had a psychiatrist who said because I didn't trust the water system, the school system, the government, I was paranoid," he said. "I had a psychiatrist who said her psychiatrist was stupid."
Goatnapper'96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008, 11:29 PM   #4
SeattleUte
 
SeattleUte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 10,665
SeattleUte has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

I think you're all off base. The apology is for those millions of LDS going along blithely thinking their leaders never make mistakes, their Church is always right, and all of this happened concerning the priesthood ban per "the Lord's" wishes and timetable. The apology is for those ignorance is bliss types, which comprise 90% of LDS faithful.

Imagine the good a full apology and confession of wrongdoing would do the LDS rank and file (including repudiation of the nutty creationist rationale cited by prophets and apostles). Some of them might start living examined lives for the first time. That would be worth it.

For similar reasons, an apology is for the children.

In the overall scheme of things personal redemption of African Amerians is not as big a factor as the foregoing, because 99.999999% of them couldn't care less.

But I want to say something in response to Chino. I think that active Mormon African Americans (most of whom are converts), rare as they may be, who have overcome LDS racism and decided to be active LDS for whatever reason, feel a an understandable sense of obligation to minimize or defend the LDS Church's racist past. They feel this obligation to LDS friends and themselves, because they feel compelled to justify their choice, which means vindicating one of the most important life-choices anyone could ever make. I once knew a very talented, attractive, and educated woman who fell in love with and married a convict, who was clearly a pretty loathsome guy. She felt compelled to defend her husband and her choice, even after he abused her, or she would in a sense be betraying herself, she had sacrificed so much for the choice. In this sense active LDS AA re still suffering indignity that could be fixed by an apology.
__________________
Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be.

—Paul Auster

Last edited by SeattleUte; 08-06-2008 at 12:57 AM.
SeattleUte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:50 AM   #5
ERCougar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,589
ERCougar is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoCoug View Post
I spent half my mission among African Americans, and this thing isn't the foremost thing on AA members' minds. Once in a while they'll ask missionaries about the ban, but our conversion rates among AAs and Africans continues to soar. Blacks are very spiritual and a vast majority of them would join the Church in spite of this concern.
Define "soar".

Many AA's who actually are baptized (including Smith) don't find out about the ban until after being baptized. That's dishonest and wrong.

This isn't about conversion rates, or becoming "more attractive" to AA's, although perhaps the effect would be positive on both of these. What Smith points out is the awkward position we place our AA members in with regards to defending their membership in a historically racist church that refuses to acknowledge and repudiate this portion of its history. I'm not sure that we white folk can fully appreciate that. If AA members feel that way, and according to Smith, there are more than a few that do, they deserve better.

What's the downside?
ERCougar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:00 AM   #6
scottie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 525
scottie is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post

Many AA's who actually are baptized (including Smith) don't find out about the ban until after being baptized...
Amen brutha. I served in South Africa in black areas my whole two years, and exactly zero of the people I baptized heard about the ban. I'm not sure if/when they ever found out about it because I'd get transferred before having to try to resolve it.
scottie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:07 AM   #7
UtahDan
Senior Member
 
UtahDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Bluth Home
Posts: 3,877
UtahDan is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoCoug View Post
I spent half my mission among African Americans, and this thing isn't the foremost thing on AA members' minds. Once in a while they'll ask missionaries about the ban, but our conversion rates among AAs and Africans continues to soar. Blacks are very spiritual and a vast majority of them would join the Church in spite of this concern.
How about doing it because it would be right and just?
__________________
The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo
UtahDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:21 AM   #8
ChinoCoug
Senior Member
 
ChinoCoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NOVA
Posts: 2,905
ChinoCoug is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
How about doing it because it would be right and just?
The dynamics of justice change when practically no one cares.
__________________
https://youtu.be/iWxwAcpuIv4
ChinoCoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:33 AM   #9
ERCougar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,589
ERCougar is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoCoug View Post
The dynamics of justice change when practically no one cares.
I don't care, ergo "practically no one cares".

There are plenty of people who care about this. A lot.
ERCougar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 05:04 AM   #10
ChinoCoug
Senior Member
 
ChinoCoug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NOVA
Posts: 2,905
ChinoCoug is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
I don't care, ergo "practically no one cares".

There are plenty of people who care about this. A lot.
There may be a few African/AA members who wrestle with this, and I hope The Church will go about this in a way that meets their needs. I would be fine if The Church apologized. But I'm willing to bet less than 2% of black members make as big of an issue out of it as some here.

None of this has stopped Africa from being the current hotbed of conversion. I came into contact with all major races on my mission, and blacks are by far the group most able to hear the Shepherd's voice.

Every entity has something that they aim to maximize, and The Church's function is to save souls. Thus everything it does should be judged through that lens.
__________________
https://youtu.be/iWxwAcpuIv4
ChinoCoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
seattle ute has pms, seattle ute has wisdom, seattle ute is a douche, su is an apologist, su is closet homosexual, su still grasps at straws, su's guilty conscience

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.