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Old 08-07-2008, 03:15 PM   #41
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Is that what you teach your children? That when they do something that hurts someone else, there's no need for an apology if they've stopped hurting them?

My children don't run major organizations and there aren't a myriad of ramifications to that organization.

If my children were evangelicals and through years and years they knocked and ripped the mormon church and eventually joined the church, I wouldn't expect them to send a formal apology to the church.
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:22 PM   #42
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I have a few questions about this pamphlet. Why isn't it called Mormon or LDS Doctrine? Why is the word doctrine not in the title? Why can't I find Nephites or Lamanites in the index? Why is there nothing in here about Lucifer's family? About Adam's family? When was it published? Has it been revised?
MESSAGE FROM THE
FIRST PRESIDENCY

This book is designed as a companion to your
study of the scriptures and the teachings of latterday
prophets. We encourage you to refer to it as
you study and apply gospel principles. Use it as a
resource when you prepare talks, teach classes,
and answer questions about the Church.
As you learn gospel truths, you will increase
in your understanding of Heavenly Father’s eternal
plan. With this understanding as a foundation
for your life, you will be able to make wise choices,
live in harmony with God’s will, and find joy in
living. Your testimony will grow stronger. You will
remain true to the faith.
We are especially mindful of youth, young
single adults, and new converts. We promise you
that through regular personal prayer and study of
the scriptures and the doctrines of the gospel you
will be prepared to withstand evil influences that
would deceive you and harm you.
May this book strengthen you in your efforts
to draw near to the Savior and follow His example.

The First Presidency
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:40 PM   #43
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When did SU become so boring?
Let's see if we can get this thread back on track. Good job hijacking it, apologists.

Dan, I've never heard you express your conviction on the apologize for racism or not issue. Do you have a conviction? Should the LDS Church issue a full apology and repudiation of its racism and racial aparthied? Should it address and repudiate the kooky (mark of Ham) creationist dogma (ripped off from racist Northern European folk tales, and resurrected by the Confederacy in the lead up to the Civil War) that was cited by past prophets and apostles as the rationale?

If so, why? Is it for AA's in general? For LDS AA's? Or the venal or just plain ignorant LDS who say no apology is necessary or the racism was God's will or who just want the past to be swept under the rug and lied about?

Perhaps a more nuanced point: Does the racism in fact continue as there is no coming to terms with the past and the foregoing views remain dominant in the institution?

If you are opposed to a full apology and repudiation, why?
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:54 PM   #44
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What do you personally get out of it if the Church apologizes? Even if they did apologize, you would then parse the hell out of their statement and find all sorts of addendums they need for a revised apology and then harp endlessly about when we think the Church will issue a more exhaustive and complete apology and why we think it is or isn't important to do so.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
Let's see if we can get this thread back on track. Good job hijacking it, apologists.

Dan, I've never heard you express your conviction on the apologize for racism or not issue. Do you have a conviction? Should the LDS Church issue a full apology and repudiation of its racism and racial aparthied? Should it address and repudiate the kooky (mark of Ham) creationist dogma (ripped off from racist Northern European folk tales, and resurrected by the Confederacy in the lead up to the Civil War) that was cited by past prophets and apostles as the rationale?

If so, why? Is it for AA's in general? For LDS AA's? Or the venal or just plain ignorant LDS who say no apology is necessary or the racism was God's will or who just want the past to be swept under the rug and lied about?

Perhaps a more nuanced point: Does the racism in fact continue as there is no coming to terms with the past and the foregoing views remain dominant in the institution?

If you are opposed to a full apology and repudiation, why?
Am I the only one seeing the spirit working on SeattleUte? I think his involvement on this board is starting to bring him around.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:20 PM   #46
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Let's see if we can get this thread back on track. Good job hijacking it, apologists.
APOLOGISTS?

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Maybe if they apologized the whole house of cards would collapse. That's a good upside, as far as I'm concerned. I bet that's what they're afraid of? Self-immolation.
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LDS Church holds the world's record among religions for lacking the courage of its convictions. It's always running scared, always dissembling. In fact, as we've established here, the LDS Church has no doctrine.
You want to talk about running around scared and refusing to apologize, I think we found a likely candidate much closer to home.

How bout this: when you recognize that you were wrong about the church having no doctrine, admit that you make generalizations on Mormon doctrine in spite of having never so much as seen a general conference for decades, and apologize for deliberately mangling the truth, THEN let's talk about the church apologizing. As it is, you make demands of the church from which you apparently consider yourself exempt.
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:03 PM   #47
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The church will never apologize for the ban. There are members in high places that look down on certain races right now. I bet if you'd ask half the current members of the church about the priesthood ban most would rationalize it by citing the biblical examples of certain portions of people not having certain privileges.

We'll have to be at least a generation removed from the current apostleship to actually see an apology, it it ever happens, which it won't.

Last edited by fusnik11; 08-07-2008 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:10 PM   #48
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The church will never apologize for the ban. There are members in high places that look down on certain races right now. I bet if you'd ask half the current members of the church about the priesthood ban most would rationalize it by citing the biblical examples of certain portions of people not having certain privileges.
Hence, the need for apology. (I think you are being too generous saying "half.")
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:12 PM   #49
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What do you personally get out of it if the Church apologizes? Even if they did apologize, you would then parse the hell out of their statement and find all sorts of addendums they need for a revised apology and then harp endlessly about when we think the Church will issue a more exhaustive and complete apology and why we think it is or isn't important to do so.
No, I wouldn't.

While I should just leave it at that, I'll cite the MMM apology as backup. I don't even remember the specific wording; I only remember the gesture and I felt like it was a noble one.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:13 PM   #50
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No, I wouldn't.

While I should just leave it at that, I'll cite the MMM apology as backup. I don't even remember the specific wording; I only remember the gesture and I felt like it was a noble one.
But the problem is you're not SU and you operate under a whole different set of motivations and values.
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