What, exactly, is objectionable about "socialism"?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Now, you're the jokester. We have not advocated a pure capitalistic society, and you're oversimplifying the arguments for the sake of absurdity, but its the degree of focus upon the principles. In a society focused upon capitalism, reliance upon government institutions impedes the workforce and the economic growth.

Actually, no. The Repubs are the one crying regime change. I have made no claims of any loss of capitalism, nor any increase in socialism as a result of this coming election.

I am pointing out a simple fact.....we are a socialist country already. So all these laments (yours included) that we are "headed" towards "european style socialism" are ridiculous and scaremongering......the preferred tool of the GOP.

Read your very own post....there is no real substance to it. You make claims of "degrees of focus," yet have absolutely no real way of measuring these degrees.

Yawn.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Actually, no. The Repubs are the one crying regime change. I have made no claims of any loss of capitalism, nor any increase in socialism as a result of this coming election.

I am pointing out a simple fact.....we are a socialist country already. So all these laments (yours included) that we are "headed" towards "european style socialism" are ridiculous and scaremongering......the preferred tool of the GOP.

Read your very own post....there is no real substance to it. You make claims of "degrees of focus," yet have absolutely no real way of measuring these degrees.

Yawn.

Since your post assumes a specturm or continuum, how do you propose it be measured?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by creekster

Since your post assumes a specturm or continuum, how do you propose it be measured?

Truthfully, I dont even think it is worth measuring. People are fearing a move towards socialism? what for? we have had over 40 presidents....most have raised taxes. Now all of a sudden we are at risk of crossing the tipping point and spilling into socialism?

our economy stinks, we are fighting an unpopular and expensive war.....there is a massive housing crisis and more people are losing jobs right now.....and we are lamenting that under these circumstances, the government might step up some social programs to help out?

These cries of "socialism" are akin to the crazy homeless guy with the sign that says, "The End is near."

If people don't want their taxes raised, then just say that. But they should not hide behind sweeping claims of "european style socialism" and "marxism."

I guess one thought is that in citing "european style socialism," are those folks admitting that there is a "US style socialism?" If so, then I can get on board with that.

[ERCougar]

My concern would be along the lines of BYU71. I'm not afraid of the label of "socialism" if we reach the kind of society that I would like to be a part of. I think the thing that frightens conservatives is the holding up of Europe as the "ideal". Europe (France, at least) seemed very caste-like, as BYU71 pointed out. I know there are statistics that show that mobility between classes has steadily declined in the US--I'd be curious to see the comparison with France. Maybe this is just a function of a much older government and society.

Additionally, the average French citizen seemed worse off than the average American--it was rare to have two cars, rare to even have a clothes-drier or a microwave, to point out a few examples. At the same time, there were fewer poor and certainly a better safety net. So where do our collective values lie--a Rawlsian ideal or one of individualism? We as a country have always favored the latter, so the term "socialist" is fairly effective as a scare tactic. Perhaps we're shifting.

[Ma'ake]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

My concern would be along the lines of BYU71. I'm not afraid of the label of "socialism" if we reach the kind of society that I would like to be a part of. I think the thing that frightens conservatives is the holding up of Europe as the "ideal". Europe (France, at least) seemed very caste-like, as BYU71 pointed out. I know there are statistics that show that mobility between classes has steadily declined in the US--I'd be curious to see the comparison with France. Maybe this is just a function of a much older government and society.

Additionally, the average French citizen seemed worse off than the average American--it was rare to have two cars, rare to even have a clothes-drier or a microwave, to point out a few examples. At the same time, there were fewer poor and certainly a better safety net. So where do our collective values lie--a Rawlsian ideal or one of individualism? We as a country have always favored the latter, so the term "socialist" is fairly effective as a scare tactic. Perhaps we're shifting.

France is an interesting case study. On the one hand it is held up as an example for nuclear energy, on the other hand it is used as a sledge hammer in debating whether to move even an inch left on the scale.

I think the French culture itself is a very big part of their economic troubles. When you have a nation where truck drivers feel empowered to bring economic activity to a standstill, that's a toxic cultural characteristic you wouldn't find here. I can't imagine any scenario where Americans would tolerate that kind of selfishness by one group.

For example, here's a private-only action that would be a national disaster - what if all the home owners who are under water on their mortages decided to "strike" until they got more favorable rates and/or lowered mortage loans. It would be a calamity... but no tax money would be involved!