For those of you who have experienced major doubts...

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by El Paso Coug

If anyone does a serious study of the origins of the Pearl of Great Price and the alleged "translation" in light of the papyri that were discovered in the late 1960s, the most logical explanation is that Joseph Smith's "translation" is a fraud. The only response LDS scholars can give (and Hugh Nibley has admitted as much) is that Joseph Smith's translation was inspired, but not meant to be a literal translation of the papyri. When you look at all of the circumstances and read numerous quotes from Joseph Smith about the translation of the Pearl of Great Price, this inspired translation theory is very hard to believe.

When you take all of the Book of Mormon problems into account as well, it makes it extremely hard to believe the restoration story. I graduated from BYU, served as AP in my mission, married in the temple, etc. etc. I continue to be involved in LDS activities and worship, but I don't believe the Church is true. My wife and Bishop know my position as well. Just my two cents.

It is hoped that you will continue to feel wanted and to belong, as there are more like you than you can imagine. Doubts should not make one feel unwelcome.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

I challenge you to find one post from me claiming any "horrible psychological harm suffered at the hands of...Mormons." It was hard leaving the church to be sure but I never suffered because of the decision.

The exact opposite is my experience. All of my family (save 1 brother) are active Mormons and I still keep friendships with my LDS friends/neighbors. I never talk religion and they never bring it up.

Feel free to whip away Arch. I can take it.

I am unimpressed because of your reliance on the so-called "Howe" affidavits. As a lawyer, we cause people to generate affidavits constantly. We try to encourage honesty, but it is easy to be suggestive of items and somebody of weak opinion is open to suggestions. Because of the nature of a biased person acquiring affidavits, Howe is completely without credibility.

But you have come here thinking you have gnostic evidence of "proof" of JS's fraud, as if we haven't read the evidence a thousand times before, or as if another perspective on the evidence isn't possible. Well it is possible, and just because one doesn't walk a screaming, mindless apostate, doesn't make the observer an idiot. Reasonable minds can differ, yet I've yet to read any post of yours being anything but entirely slanted like the Tanners. So for Tanner type apostates, I say good riddance.

Thoughtful persons such as El Paso, or even Seattle Ute, who finds the community somewhat engage are valuable. But the bitter apostates such as you are not.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by T Blue

I guess you are right, it's just me thinking about how when I split, I split.

I didn't continue going to church for my wife, I didn't do it for my kids, I just left and never looked back for quite some time

Well, you da man El Paso, you da man, you are able to do it even though you believe it false; not quite sure that is good, but you da man.

If somebody wants to leave then that person shouldn't complain. But if somebody wants to stay around even if he doesn't believe, then that's okay by me as well.

It's the Taqmans that have no value. They leave, but bitch and complain about what a crock of shizz JS was. They have the "Mormonism did to me." With that I disagree with Seattle. There are some cultural things which Mormonism does, i.e., sexual repression of women, but by in large its effects are beneficial and one shouldn't blame the culture for your own problems.

[All-American]

If a man had serious doubts about the veracity of the church and still participated because he felt like it was the right thing to do, shouldn't church members embrace and applaud such a course of action?

I'd prefer one who kept the commandments though uncertain of their origins than one who knew with absolute certainty whence they came-- and proceeded to disregard them.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by All-American

If a man had serious doubts about the veracity of the church and still participated because he felt like it was the right thing to do, shouldn't church members embrace and applaud such a course of action?

I'd prefer one who kept the commandments though uncertain of their origins than one who knew with absolute certainty whence they came-- and proceeded to disregard them.

even if he didn't keep the commandments I hope we would welcome such a person.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by T Blue

I guess you are right, it's just me thinking about how when I split, I split.

I didn't continue going to church for my wife, I didn't do it for my kids, I just left and never looked back for quite some time

Well, you da man El Paso, you da man, you are able to do it even though you believe it false; not quite sure that is good, but you da man.

Hell, I thought I was going to be able to stay out of this thread. I hung around for 10 years. I did it for my wife. I did it for kids. And I did it for the sense of community (kind of like The Elks without the booze and bingo). I don't mean to be judgmental, but you sound like a selfish person. I have a lot of respect for El Paso. I don't pretend to know all of his motivations, but I think a large component of it is that the Church is a big part of the lives of the people he loves and he wants to share in their lives. Why is that so hard to understand?

[El Paso Coug]

Originally Posted by T Blue

I guess you are right, it's just me thinking about how when I split, I split.

I didn't continue going to church for my wife, I didn't do it for my kids, I just left and never looked back for quite some time

Well, you da man El Paso, you da man, you are able to do it even though you believe it false; not quite sure that is good, but you da man.

I don't want to explain my entire belief system and how it has affected my activity in the Church. Let me just state that leaving the Church isn't always black and white and I personally think that it can be very complex on several levels and takes on several shades of gray. All I can say is that I have put myself in a situation in which I am very happy and at peace with my beliefs and family. My relationship with my wife and children is the best that is has ever been and my relationship with the Church is probably a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being fully active and 1 being completely inactive.

[RockyBalboa]

I applaud El Paso for being in a place that he's at peace with.

It's something that most of us, including myself are still trying to discover.

[BYU71]

There are many in the church who are in El Paso's situation or very, very close to it.

Many of them pay tithing and send kids on missions. After the Sister Beck situation, I asked a gal who works in this office what she thought. She said it didn't bother her. She said she doesn't believe everything they say in conference. She said she thinks the church is a great culture to belong to even if we find out it really isn't "the only true church."

She and her husband pay tithing and are sending a kid on a mission and go to church regularly. Do we really want to start putting people who don't believe as strongly as the orthodox types on guilt trips so they will either stay or go?

[Gifted Fish]

Originally Posted by BYU71

There are many in the church who are in El Paso's situation or very, very close to it.

Many of them pay tithing and send kids on missions. After the Sister Beck situation, I asked a gal who works in this office what she thought. She said it didn't bother her. She said she doesn't believe everything they say in conference. She said she thinks the church is a great culture to belong to even if we find out it really isn't "the only true church."

She and her husband pay tithing and are sending a kid on a mission and go to church regularly. Do we really want to start putting people who don't believe as strongly as the orthodox types on guilt trips so they will either stay or go?

Besides the fact that I'm not female, you've pretty much described me exactly. I don't believe in the signs and symbols of the temple, for example, but I go occasionally (when my wife drags me), because I often feel some measure of peace and desire to be a better person when I go. I'll push my boys to go on missions because I think it will help them become better people, and if they believe the whole church thing, that's fine with me, because I don't think it's harmful.

After the last few years of going through some difficult grappling with the laundry list of issues, I feel much more at peace with no longer feeling compelled to decide whether this is the "only true church" or not. I've decided that it's a great church/institution that is divinely inspired to a large degree, but to me there is no way that there can be one "true" church, whatever that means. There are plenty of things that inspire me without the need to analyze whether they are "true" or not. Maybe that makes me lukewarm or shows that I'm not a thinking person, but at this point in my life, I don't care.