The Church's financial situation

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't it be an amazing church if all units were broken down to no more then 100 people and all the buildings were sold off? Imagine the changes in focus. Maybe it would only be doable outside of Utah.

At least then the Utah Mormons moving out here for work wouldn't be so shocked to find that the "mission field" is just like their ward back home.

[MikeWaters]

One thing I liked about my mission is that we never had priesthood or sunday school. Just 1 hr sacrament mtg.

That might bump up attendance as well if implemented in the US.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think it is the focus of the leadership.

When you get a congregation of over 100 people, you start thinking about things like your YM/YW programs a lot. And you start wondering who to call as the Family History Expert. And you start a teacher development class.

When you only have 50 members in the unit and you are meeting upstairs from Sbarro in Queens or in the elementary school cafeteria in Nashville, I think the numbers 1, 2, and 3 priorities is going to get the inactive and fellowshipping the visitors and bringing your friends.

Oddly, in the small branches your Sunday school classes are usually better, your youth are more involved. I'll admit that little to no family history gets done.

Wouldn't it be an amazing church if all units were broken down to no more then 100 people and all the buildings were sold off? Imagine the changes in focus. Maybe it would only be doable outside of Utah.

You really only need a bishop for two assignments: the youth and Ward Mission. Everything else should be delegated to the appropriate quorum president (EQ/HP, RS) or a counselor.

[Archaea]

I wouldn't mind if Sunday School became more of a study group mentality with bishopric members schooled in oversight. Current Sunday School is beneficial for new members, but unless you have a Pelagius type approach is not that beneficial for the average long term member.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yea, that too. I totally agree with this. I ache for more sacrifice. And don't give me the line about I could pay 50% tithing or ask me if I have ever missed a HT month. I'm talking about true communal shared suffering and sacrifice for a greater good. I think many long for it as do I.

Although I know sacrifice might benefit me, I don't ache for it, because the aches will come in due time. No, I wish for no wintry doctrines to come upon me before their time.

[RC Vikings]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Although I know sacrifice might benefit me, I don't ache for it, because the aches will come in due time. No, I wish for no wintry doctrines to come upon me before their time.

I'm with you there. I need them but I don't want them.

[hyrum]

Originally Posted by Adam

But maybe, just maybe, there is a different, more Christlike path for the Church of Jesus Christ to take. Maybe the best path would be to take care of the poor and needy starving today rather then piddle out a few million each year while building the endowment.

Did you mean to say, "Take care of the needs of upscale retailers so that Coach may have an outlet in downtown Salt Lake City"?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Adam

In this case, Larry's wife had died years ago. He had been in a bad motorcycle accident about 5 years ago and was disabled to the point that he couldn't work. He had metal rods in both legs and a metal plate in his head. His kids said that after the accident, he was not himself--much quieter and more withdrawn. He never completed the SSDisability paperwork.

He stayed with his son on occasion, on really cold nights. But there wasn't an extra room and Larry never felt comfortable taking over the living room couch. The Food & Care Coalition in Provo gives out motel vouchers to single mothers, usually fleeing an abusive husband, but don't have enough to give out to single men like Larry.

Larry attended church only sporadicly after his accident and the loss of his home (foreclosure after the accident). He didn't have a home ward. He was too embarrassed to go back to his old ward after he lost his home.

He would park his little tow trailer around the valley and had a small kerosene heater to stay warm. But people would call the cops on him--uncomfortable that some guy was staying in a trailer out on the street in their neighborhood. He parked out by the lake behind Geneva until he was robbed there in the middle of the night. Eventually the police impounded his trailer after another call.

On new-years day 2007 he would have gone to a shelter if there had been one. The metal in his legs and head got cold easily and warmed up slowly. It was very painful for him to get too cold. But there isn't a shelter in Utah County and so he camped out in the back of his jeep, hoping for a snow to cover the soft-top and provide some insulation. It didn't. He froze to death.

The Provo City council (and every other city counsel approached) has denied the zoning permission to build a shelter. In the Provo council meeting, one member actually said that the reason they opposed it was because it would attract other homeless people. We don't want to keep one warm, because it would attract others who need to be kept warm. Amazing.

I have been working with the Food and Care Coalition this past year to raise money for a shelter. The going is slow. A few wealthy individuals have stepped up. We still have a long way to go. Elder Bullock of the 70 is working with Bishop Burton to try to get the Church to donate some money. So far they have not.

We have been unable to get many people to donate because they give so generously to the church. One prominent business owner said he gave 6 figures to the new GBH building at BYU. Another said he was donating heavily to build the new Draper temple. Another said he was a big supporter of the PEduFund. All gave small checks. The church takes the charitable money in this valley and doesn't leave much for anyone else.

And so we have a great endowment to fund our operations going forward! We sure are fiscally prudent!

I frankly feel kind of sick to my stomach each month as I write my tithing check and know that 5-7 more people are going to freeze to death in Utah County next winter.

As you can see, it is for me very personal.

So what did you give him?

[MikeWaters]

Adam, there is a reason the New Jerusalem will be moved from Utah to Missouri.

Zion cannot exist in Utah. The Lord knows this.

Is there anything more Christian (and put whatever sort of meaning you want on this word) about Utah than anyplace else?

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Adam

In this case, Larry's wife had died years ago. He had been in a bad motorcycle accident about 5 years ago and was disabled to the point that he couldn't work. He had metal rods in both legs and a metal plate in his head. His kids said that after the accident, he was not himself--much quieter and more withdrawn. He never completed the SSDisability paperwork.

He stayed with his son on occasion, on really cold nights. But there wasn't an extra room and Larry never felt comfortable taking over the living room couch. The Food & Care Coalition in Provo gives out motel vouchers to single mothers, usually fleeing an abusive husband, but don't have enough to give out to single men like Larry.

Larry attended church only sporadicly after his accident and the loss of his home (foreclosure after the accident). He didn't have a home ward. He was too embarrassed to go back to his old ward after he lost his home.

He would park his little tow trailer around the valley and had a small kerosene heater to stay warm. But people would call the cops on him--uncomfortable that some guy was staying in a trailer out on the street in their neighborhood. He parked out by the lake behind Geneva until he was robbed there in the middle of the night. Eventually the police impounded his trailer after another call.

On new-years day 2007 he would have gone to a shelter if there had been one. The metal in his legs and head got cold easily and warmed up slowly. It was very painful for him to get too cold. But there isn't a shelter in Utah County and so he camped out in the back of his jeep, hoping for a snow to cover the soft-top and provide some insulation. It didn't. He froze to death.

The Provo City council (and every other city counsel approached) has denied the zoning permission to build a shelter. In the Provo council meeting, one member actually said that the reason they opposed it was because it would attract other homeless people. We don't want to keep one warm, because it would attract others who need to be kept warm. Amazing.

I have been working with the Food and Care Coalition this past year to raise money for a shelter. The going is slow. A few wealthy individuals have stepped up. We still have a long way to go. Elder Bullock of the 70 is working with Bishop Burton to try to get the Church to donate some money. So far they have not.

We have been unable to get many people to donate because they give so generously to the church. One prominent business owner said he gave 6 figures to the new GBH building at BYU. Another said he was donating heavily to build the new Draper temple. Another said he was a big supporter of the PEduFund. All gave small checks. The church takes the charitable money in this valley and doesn't leave much for anyone else.

And so we have a great endowment to fund our operations going forward! We sure are fiscally prudent!

I frankly feel kind of sick to my stomach each month as I write my tithing check and know that 5-7 more people are going to freeze to death in Utah County next winter.

As you can see, it is for me very personal.

Maybe instead of blaming the church you should blame the government that taxes people to the point that they become tightwads with everything leftover.
Forced charity creates resentment in the giver. Maybe people just feel like the government takes enough of their money that they should be doing something productive with it. Your decision to hold the church responsible because it asks members to pay tithes and fast offerings strikes me as rather irrational.