Emma didn't keep JS's male courtship pattern in check.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I blame Emma for polygamy.

So let me get this straight - in addition to being submissive, crafty, domestic and sexually alluring/available 24/7, Mormon wives are responsible for discouraging their husbands' polygamous and polyandry (e.g. sexually enticing) escapades?

And this weekend I will be lectured about how wonderful it is to be a second class citizen in an obscure western U.S. religion that essentially panders to women, while reserving all the decision making authority to the resident male patriarchy who look down their bulbous noses at real feminine issues? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Serious question: what value does the Church bring to women (especially single women not named Dew) other than an obscure promise of salvation linked specifically to "their man"? Face it, the Church still subtly condones polygamy by allowing men to be sealed to multiple wives.

I will wait for honest introspective answers on the value question (no Brigham Young or BRM quotes please - if it is not apparent, I am having a bad day).

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

This is from a 2003 review article by Vernon Quinsey in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences:

Heterosexual men prefer young adult females as sexual partners. The evidence comes from studies of the sexual attractiveness of stimulus persons who vary in age and sex measured by ratings, covertly measured viewing time, and changes in penile tumescence (Freund, Langevin, Cibiri and Zajac, 1973; Harris et al., 1992, 1996; Jankowiak, Hill & Donovan, 1992; Quinsey & Chaplin, 1988a; Quinsey et al., 1975, 1993, 1996; Silverthorne & Quinsey, 2000). Men prefer features that are associated with fertility and health, including symmetrical faces with particular neotenous features (Johnston, 1999) and average weight figures with hip to waist ratios typical of young adult women (Singh, 1993). There is very strong agreement among observers' ratings of the beauty of female faces (Johnston, 1999) and as far as known, these preferences occur across cultures (Bradshaw, Bubier & Sullivan, 1994; Cunningham, Roberts, Barbee, Druen & Wu, 1995; Johnston, 1999; Korthase & Trenholme, 1982; Singh & Luis, 1995). Preferred partner age remains constant over age among adult men (Bradshaw, Bubier & Sullivan, 1994; Korthase & Trenholme, 1982; Silverthorne & Quinsey, 2000).

Heterosexual men are more interested in sexually novel partners than are women, giving rise to what can be termed a "male courtship pattern" characterized by greater male interest in pictures of nudes and erotic movies, desiring a greater number of sexual partners, greater male striving for actual sexual encounters, less discrimination among potential sexual partners in short-term mating contexts, and so forth (for reviews see Buss, 1989; Buss & Schmitt, 1993; and Hamida, Mineka & Bailey, 1998). The ultimate explanation for these features of the male sexual preference system turns on the observation that the principal limiting factor on male reproductive success in ancestral environments was the number of a man's sexual partners, whereas the principal limiting factor on female reproductive success was the resources a woman could obtain to raise the offspring she had, not the number of her sexual partners.

They also like big tits. I only have a BS in Poly Sci and I have never set up any experiment, but I am sure I would have many from CougarGuard willing to participate so that I might either prove or disprove my hypothesis. If you feel so moved to accept my claim without any data to back it up, feel free to use this quote without any proper documentation.

I believe it was the great American philosopher "Sir-Mix-A-Lot" who coined the phrase...."I like big butts and I don't know why."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Requiem

So let me get this straight - in addition to being submissive, crafty, domestic and sexually alluring/available 24/7, Mormon wives are responsible for discouraging their husbands' polygamous and polyandry (e.g. sexually enticing) escapades?

And this weekend I will be lectured about how wonderful it is to be a second class citizen in an obscure western U.S. religion that essentially panders to women, while reserving all the decision making authority to the resident male patriarchy who look down their bulbous noses at real feminine issues? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Serious question: what value does the Church bring to women (especially single women not named Dew) other than an obscure promise of salvation linked specifically to "their man"? Face it, the Church still subtly condones polygamy by allowing men to be sealed to multiple wives.

I will wait for honest introspective answers on the value question (no Brigham Young or BRM quotes please - if it is not apparent, I am having a bad day).

Hope your day improves.

I can't wait to see what value it has for adults who don't fit the "Ensign Way". It provides a good culture for children to grow up in, but it is a challenging culture for adults except for Peyton Place people.

JS is the person to blame for polygamy. If he were inspired to do it, we may discover that, but it doesn't feel right. How we as two separate species are ever intended to get along is a revelation I'm still waiting to receive.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Requiem

So let me get this straight - in addition to being submissive, crafty, domestic and sexually alluring/available 24/7, Mormon wives are responsible for discouraging their husbands' polygamous and polyandry (e.g. sexually enticing) escapades?

I think you maybe can't tell when I'm kidding and when I'm not (and you're certainly not the only one--my wife can't tell when I'm kidding either). I was just making an absurd statement about Emma in an attempt to turn the discussion to male physiology, which I believe to be the root of polygamy.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Serious question: what value does the Church bring to women (especially single women not named Dew) other than an obscure promise of salvation linked specifically to "their man"? Face it, the Church still subtly condones polygamy by allowing men to be sealed to multiple wives.

I will wait for honest introspective answers on the value question (no Brigham Young or BRM quotes please - if it is not apparent, I am having a bad day).

It is true. It is a wonderful organization that provides you ample opportunities to serve your fellow man and be fed true principles that if lived to the fullest of your capacity will maximize your temporal happiness.

Further there is no utopia on earth. The cultural shortcomings as a consequence of many factors other than the individual shortcomings of key leaders do not steal from the gospel's divine mission.

Besides that Elder Holland may lambast the womenfolk who go and get the falsies, so those of you stricken with some of the physiological uhhhhh shortcomings of Scandinavian ancestors can take great pride in your lack of vanity......

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Requiem

So let me get this straight - in addition to being submissive, crafty, domestic and sexually alluring/available 24/7, Mormon wives are responsible for discouraging their husbands' polygamous and polyandry (e.g. sexually enticing) escapades?

And this weekend I will be lectured about how wonderful it is to be a second class citizen in an obscure western U.S. religion that essentially panders to women, while reserving all the decision making authority to the resident male patriarchy who look down their bulbous noses at real feminine issues? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Serious question: what value does the Church bring to women (especially single women not named Dew) other than an obscure promise of salvation linked specifically to "their man"? Face it, the Church still subtly condones polygamy by allowing men to be sealed to multiple wives.

I will wait for honest introspective answers on the value question (no Brigham Young or BRM quotes please - if it is not apparent, I am having a bad day).

All I can go by is the experiences of my mother, sisters and wife in the church, but I really, really have a hard time seeing how you can think that women are second class citizens.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I can grasp that polygamy presents challenges and trials that helps to facilitate attitudes and characteristics of Deity. I think polygamy helps one to become more unselfish, giving and humble. I think it is very hard work for the man to ensure that the needs, emotional mostly, of more than one women are met. The challenges the women face are more obvious.

Does this wandering make me a closet mullah, closet apostate or a pussie on a fence that is endeavoring to keep a foot both in the world and please academics and a foot in the Kingdom wanting to please orthodox mormons. Am I confused and at a fork in the road with one way leading to Tex, IndyCoug life and salvation and the other way leading to SeattleUte?

What would Yogi Berra do?

Tell me please that you are being sarcastic by saying "polygamy helps one to become more unselfish"! It helps the men become more sexually selfish, nothing else. It was and always will be a tribal practice that abused women while legitimizing the sexual curiousity of men who wielded power. Didn't your coursework in leadership at West Point delve into great detail about the abuse of power? I would think that you of all people would be enlightened on this issue.

Yogi would call for a fastball up and in. And Sister Dew would take it in her balls like she always does. Interesting how she is able to get Deseret Book to publish her own books of drivel...

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

All I can go by is the experiences of my mother, sisters and wife in the church, but I really, really have a hard time seeing how you can think that women are second class citizens.

Put on a dress and wig and go join a singles ward for three months, then report back.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Tell me please that you are being sarcastic by saying "polygamy helps one to become more unselfish"! It helps the men become more sexually selfish, nothing else. It was and always will be a tribal practice that abused women while legitimizing the sexual curiousity of men who wielded power.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

All I can go by is the experiences of my mother, sisters and wife in the church, but I really, really have a hard time seeing how you can think that women are second class citizens.

I don't. They are treated as second class citizens even though they aren't. And I don't have the answers as to how to change it.

The culture the Church has created does not value women, except in a subordinate way. There are women who have created enclaves of value, but our culture is male-dominated, from the way women's garments are created to whether can wear capris at BYU-I. However, women are complex, as individuals, and I am the last person to advise how integration of the genders should occur. However, I am willing to recognize they are not first class citizens in our society and culture.