do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[MikeWaters]

I think Piaget and Kohlberg have more insights than santos and creekster into moral development of children.

here's a sampling:
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think Piaget and Kohlberg have more insights than santos and creekster into moral development of children.

here's a sampling:
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

Exactly what I was thinking.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

The three i was referring to, you, MW, and DDD don't have kids that age. I have three that have passed that age and one close. So yeah I guess I do claim special insight. Adam's just trolling.

Kids from a very young age learn concepts of obedience, faith, repentance, personal responsibility, etc.

I totally reject Adam's comparison to eating veggies. Many (at least mine did, can't speak for all) have true beginnings of faith in Christ and testimony of the gospel. They understand what baptism is and why it is necessary and they make a concious decision to follow Christ by being baptized.

It's extremely patronizing and inaccurate to categorize an 8 yo's decision to get baptized as being forced to comply with their parents wishes.

you know how old redheadgal's kids are? is there anything you think you don't know?

Moral development, is in part, a function of age. The moral development of an 8 year old is not the same as an 11 year old, on average.

The question with the policy is at what minimum age are we comfortable with baptizing kids that are too immature. In other words, we capture all 8 year olds, knowing a certain % are probably too immature. At 7 yo that would increase. At 9yo it would decrease. At 18 yo, few would have a problem. At 30yo, certainly fewer would object.

Like I said, it's a ritual and custom. Some understand it. A few will remember it. Most will probably not. That's ok. It's just an amplified version of infant baptism, it could be argued, for many children.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think Piaget and Kohlberg have more insights than santos and creekster into moral development of children.

here's a sampling:
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

So will you prevent your children from being baptized until they demosntrate the sort of moral reasoninbg piaget suggests might be apporiopriate? IOW, will you wait until they are 10 or 11 to have them baptized? Seriously?

I never said I had special insight, by the way, but I found Reheadgal's crtiicism of Jay's opinion to be rather self-serving. I think we are all experssing opinons here, and I am happy to discuss anyone's, but I think that type of appeal to the basis for our insight is rather useless in this type of forum.

I very, very briefly reviewed the article and I am not sure it is incompatible with my own thoughts which were very inartfully expressed above. IOW, the choice from the 8 yold's world view is sufficient for the purposes of baptism. That this world view will change dramatically over the years is almost always true for every decisions.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think Piaget and Kohlberg have more insights than santos and creekster into moral development of children.

here's a sampling:
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

I'm sure they do. What stage of moral development would they suggest for baptism and at what age does that correlate to?

If i was in charge, i might increase the baptism age to 12 or so. But based on my own experiences, I would fight tooth and nail someone who casually dismisses an 8 yo's ability to make an informed decision to be baptized.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by creekster

So will you prevent your children from being baptized until they demosntrate the sort of moral reasoninbg piaget suggests might be apporiopriate? IOW, will you wait until they are 10 or 11 to have them baptized? Seriously?

I never said I had special insight, by the way, but I found Reheadgal's crtiicism of Jay's opinion to be rather self-serving. I think we are all experssing opinons here, and I am happy to discuss anyone's, but I think that type of appeal to the basis for our insight is rather useless in this type of forum.

I very, very briefly reviewed the article and I am not sure it is incompatible with my own thoughts which were very inartfully expressed above. IOW, the choice from the 8 yold's world view is sufficient for the purposes of baptism. That this world view will change dramatically over the years is almost always true for every decisions.

I probably would not prevent a child from being baptized if the child said yes and the parents said yes, even if reasoning and knowledge were close to zero.

If a kid with severe Down's syndrome or other form of retardation wanted to be baptized at 8, I probably wouldn't say no.

I think as a parent, you could look at your own kid and say "in what fashion would this be the most meaningful for him/her." Often the answer will be to follow custom, so he/she doesnt' feel excluded. In some cases it may be to wait until the kid is more mature.

[Indy Coug]

How high are the church barriers to baptism, both now and anciently? Does that indicate to you that God expects, let alone demands, a thorough knowledge of LDS theology and/or a comprehensive understanding of how it stacks up relative to other offerings in the spritual market?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/18/1-17#1

In light of that, is there some reason why the barrier should be raised to preclude 8 year olds from being baptized?

Why are we baptized? What does baptism represent? What role does baptism play in our salvation and exaltation?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

you know how old redheadgal's kids are? is there anything you think you don't know?

I could be totally wrong on redheadgal. I thought she was single and never has mentioned kids. Sorry RHG if I botched it.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

is there anything you think you don't know?

Based on the Pelagius probability model, you can just assume I probably know everything compared to you.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

How high are the church barriers to baptism, both now and anciently? Does that indicate to you that God expects, let alone demands, a thorough knowledge of LDS theology and/or a comprehensive understanding of how it stacks up relative to other offerings in the spritual market?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/18/1-17#1

In light of that, is there some reason why the barrier should be raised to preclude 8 year olds from being baptized?

Why are we baptized? What does baptism represent? What role does baptism play in our salvation and exaltation?

so why not 7yo?

(I'll answer if it for you--1) they are less mature, and 2) 8yo is the custom (as taught by Joseph Smith)).

Of course the other argument is quite simple and powerful: that's the age that God wants it, maturity notwithstanding.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by creekster

The notion of an informed deciison is a tricky one on this sort of issue. Looking back as a 40 year old no one would think they were capable of making a mature decions at 8. Of course, a 40 year old usually thinks they were completely lost at 18, too, even though when 18 the same person thought they knew exactly everyhting there was to know. How many here, for example, are rather confident that a 50 year old Waters will look back at his posts from 2006 and chuckle at what a knucklehead he was at times?

I am sure that the notion of accountability is important here. By 8, one is typically able to determine what is right or worng (I guess htis might mean effectively employ the light of Christ) and so the time for baptism is approrpiate. The percevied scope and import of the convenants asssumed by baptism will change over time as the person matures and learns and changes. Thje 8 year old chooses to be baptized in the important sense of choosing the right thing. Is it as informed as it could be if he waited until he was 20? not in some ways, but from his perspective it is and, on this issue, that is enough.

I think Creekster nailed it on the head here, and I'm surprised it didn't end the discussion.

The decision to be baptized is about being informed of Christ, sin, repentance, and responsibility. It is not about "Islam v. Christianity" or "Baptist v. Mormon," as some of you have weirdly assumed. An 8-year-old child who understands what it means to do wrong, what it means to be forgiven, and it what it means that Christ sacrificed himself for us is ready to "choose" to be baptized.

It's interesting how you all are assuming a definition of "decision." A "decision," to Waters and the likeminded, is something that only follows the presentation of the available alternatives and a weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Only in the ivory tower does such a definition apply. In reality, a "decision" is one where the moral implications are apprehended. As it relates to sin, repentance, forgiveness, and Christ, most 8-year olds are fully capable of apprehending the moral implications of baptism.