(Im)mutability of Same Gender Attraction - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 08-18-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

Without arguing labels about gay men and straight women, perhaps somebody can look it up, but the recent discussions reject your premise, gay men are encouraged to stay celibate, not to marry straight women. Can you find contrary evidence.

I think the church would argue that a man that can marry a woman and conceive a child with her is not gay.

There are likely thousands of gay men married in the temple to straight women in the church.

Indy Coug · 08-18-2008, 02:32 PM

Is there a difference in the mutability of sexual orientation in women compared to men?

Archaea · 08-18-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is there a difference in the mutability of sexual orientation in women compared to men?

Yes. Some go from liking to men and desiring them, to hating them and wanting to have nothing to do with men. They're called divorcees.

SeattleUte · 08-18-2008, 03:16 PM

Truth be told there isn't a lot of evidence either way on the choice question, except for the testimony of millions upon millions of homosexuals, with virtually no contradiction or dissent. Why isn't that good enough? There is also common sense: why would someome choose to be gay? I agreed with Waters when he said if he could choose sexual preference for his children he would choose straight, for no other reason than that a straight's life is easier than a gay's.

Indy Coug · 08-18-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Truth be told there isn't a lot of evidence either way on the choice question, except for the testimony of millions upon millions of homosexuals, with virtually no contradiction or dissent. Why isn't that good enough? There is also common sense: why would someome choose to be gay? I agreed with Waters when he said if he could choose sexual preference for his children he would choose straight, for no other reason than that a straight's life is easier than a gay's.

I saw a news story where it highlighted several gays who claimed they successfully changed their orientation. It would be interesting to see how many people out there actually claim this and whether or not the orientation change has "stuck" over the long term and what brought about that orientation change.

MikeWaters · 08-18-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I saw a news story where it highlighted several gays who claimed they successfully changed their orientation. It would be interesting to see how many people out there actually claim this and whether or not the orientation change has "stuck" over the long term and what brought about that orientation change.

what does that mean? If you are able to marry and impregnate your wife, does that mean your orientation changed from gay to straight?

What you are citing was a much hotter topic about 7 years ago. I've heard much less about it since. I think it's a dying movement.

Would YOU call it a success if your straight daughter married a gay man? I doubt it.

Indy Coug · 08-18-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what does that mean? If you are able to marry and impregnate your wife, does that mean your orientation changed from gay to straight?

What you are citing was a much hotter topic about 7 years ago. I've heard much less about it since. I think it's a dying movement.

Would YOU call it a success if your straight daughter married a gay man? I doubt it.

What does it mean? I don't know.

They claimed they no longer were sexually attracted to members of the same sex. Were they honest? I don't know.

Did the change in sexual attraction last? I don't know.

All I'm pointing out is that there are people who have claimed they have successfully changed their orientation and it should be worth some additional scrutiny to determine the validity of their claims and if the claims are valid, determine how the change came about.

Why haven't we heard anything more about it? I think there's overwhelming political pressure not to admit sexual orientation is mutable if that was actually the case.

Furthermore, to claim that sexual orientation is mutable for SOME does not necessarily extrapolate to a claim that it is mutable for ALL.

MikeWaters · 08-18-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

What does it mean? I don't know.

They claimed they no longer were sexually attracted to members of the same sex. Were they honest? I don't know.

Did the change in sexual attraction last? I don't know.

All I'm pointing out is that there are people who have claimed they have successfully changed their orientation and it should be worth some additional scrutiny to determine the validity of their claims and if the claims are valid, determine how the change came about.

Why haven't we heard anything more about it? I think there's overwhelming political pressure not to admit sexual orientation is mutable if that was actually the case.

Furthermore, to claim that sexual orientation is mutable for SOME does not necessarily extrapolate to a claim that it is mutable for ALL.

Like I said, you are late to the party, and the party appears to be coming to an end in this regard. Trust me, I pay attention to such things in the media, and it was being discussed seven years ago.

I have it in the back of my mind, probably reported here or on CB, but that two of the leading proponents of this, a gay man and a gay woman who married, ended up splitting and "reverting" and saying "it was never completely like we said it was, and hoped it was, but we really did try." Hurt the cause.

SeattleUte · 08-18-2008, 03:55 PM

It's a proven fact that under extreme duress, humans, when confronted with an alternative of living a life sterilized of human intimacy, will sometimes change sexual preference as long as the duress and extreme conditions exist. We see this in prisons, where something like family relationships including extended family relationships are formed, including monogomous couples among heretofore heterosexuals. (I've heard that as long as it is consentual these bonds are not discouraged or prohibited by prison authorities.) That situation is obviously irrelevant to whether gays otherwise living under like conditions as heterosexuals ought to be able to marry their lovers. Of course this isn't "preference" at all.

If there are situations where gays claim to have been "cured" and are now heterosexual, they are extremely rare compared to the overal gay populace. I can understand how such a "cure" might seem to occur, where, much like in prisons, a gay who claims to have turned heterosexual was confronted with losing all family and cultural ties, any form of intimacy to which he had grown accustomed and used to relying upon, except his gay lover, which brings on a whole new set of stresses and issues, as does any monogomous sexual relationship. These miraculous "cures" all seem to happen in the context of extreme religious conservatism and pressure. Don't they? Again, this is not preference but a response to among the most cruel possible coersion--complete ostracisation by family and friends.

ERCougar · 08-18-2008, 03:57 PM

No, the majority of gays (and straights) don't "choose" to be gay or straight. However, there's a significant population who fall in the middle of the continuum who do choose their team, so to speak. I know several women (one a close friend) who had a lesbian phase (lengthy, and beyond just experimentation) and is now happily married to a man. I would call her legitimately bisexual. Curiously, I don't know any men who have gone from gay to straight, but I imagine that is due more to the incredible societal pressure on a man to at least try to be straight from the beginning; if they're openly gay, they've likely already tried the straight route.

Waters is likely right--there are likely a host of LDS men who are gay/bisexual and in hetero relationships. I think the church, to their credit, has certainly shifted in their advice to these men, from "fake it till you make it" to celibacy.

08-18-2008, 03:16 PM	#14
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	Truth be told there isn't a lot of evidence either way on the choice question, except for the testimony of millions upon millions of homosexuals, with virtually no contradiction or dissent. Why isn't that good enough? There is also common sense: why would someome choose to be gay? I agreed with Waters when he said if he could choose sexual preference for his children he would choose straight, for no other reason than that a straight's life is easier than a gay's. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

08-18-2008, 03:55 PM	#19
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	It's a proven fact that under extreme duress, humans, when confronted with an alternative of living a life sterilized of human intimacy, will sometimes change sexual preference as long as the duress and extreme conditions exist. We see this in prisons, where something like family relationships including extended family relationships are formed, including monogomous couples among heretofore heterosexuals. (I've heard that as long as it is consentual these bonds are not discouraged or prohibited by prison authorities.) That situation is obviously irrelevant to whether gays otherwise living under like conditions as heterosexuals ought to be able to marry their lovers. Of course this isn't "preference" at all. If there are situations where gays claim to have been "cured" and are now heterosexual, they are extremely rare compared to the overal gay populace. I can understand how such a "cure" might seem to occur, where, much like in prisons, a gay who claims to have turned heterosexual was confronted with losing all family and cultural ties, any form of intimacy to which he had grown accustomed and used to relying upon, except his gay lover, which brings on a whole new set of stresses and issues, as does any monogomous sexual relationship. These miraculous "cures" all seem to happen in the context of extreme religious conservatism and pressure. Don't they? Again, this is not preference but a response to among the most cruel possible coersion--complete ostracisation by family and friends. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster Last edited by SeattleUte; 08-18-2008 at 03:59 PM.

08-18-2008, 02:32 PM	#12
Indy Coug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Between Iraq and a hard place Posts: 7,569	Is there a difference in the mutability of sexual orientation in women compared to men?

08-18-2008, 03:57 PM	#20
ERCougar Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,589	No, the majority of gays (and straights) don't "choose" to be gay or straight. However, there's a significant population who fall in the middle of the continuum who do choose their team, so to speak. I know several women (one a close friend) who had a lesbian phase (lengthy, and beyond just experimentation) and is now happily married to a man. I would call her legitimately bisexual. Curiously, I don't know any men who have gone from gay to straight, but I imagine that is due more to the incredible societal pressure on a man to at least try to be straight from the beginning; if they're openly gay, they've likely already tried the straight route. Waters is likely right--there are likely a host of LDS men who are gay/bisexual and in hetero relationships. I think the church, to their credit, has certainly shifted in their advice to these men, from "fake it till you make it" to celibacy.