How old were you when you first learned JS practiced polyandry?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Meaning to read Bushman's bio but failing to do so, what does Bushman offer in the way of commentary on this?

Very nondescript. Just yes, pretty good evidence that in at least two or three of the situations a fully functioning polyandrous relationship existed.

I still scratch my head on those. That's why I believe some permission may have been given to institute polygamy and Joseph was left to figure it out for himself. He may have gone too far, who knows. It's an oddity. Oliver Cowdery is rumored to have been pissed when he didn't get the same permission.

Again, I don't worship Joseph Smith, but admire his courage in trying times and the fact that he overcame difficult circumstances. But he was human, with frailties and strengths. People with great strengths often have very strong frailties.

[ute4ever]

Wasn't Joseph's example the basis for the weekend Vegas marriage / sexapalooza / annulment, the logic being hey so long as you are married, it is not adultery?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Wasn't Joseph's example the basis for the weekend Vegas marriage / sexapalooza / annulment, the logic being hey so long as you are married, it is not adultery?

No I think it's okay have sex with other women so long as they are also married. Huge note of sarcasm for the humor impaired.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Very nondescript. Just yes, pretty good evidence that in at least two or three of the situations a fully functioning polyandrous relationship existed.

I still scratch my head on those. That's why I believe some permission may have been given to institute polygamy and Joseph was left to figure it out for himself. He may have gone too far, who knows. It's an oddity. Oliver Cowdery is rumored to have been pissed when he didn't get the same permission.

Again, I don't worship Joseph Smith, but admire his courage in trying times and the fact that he overcame difficult circumstances. But he was human, with frailties and strengths. People with great strengths often have very strong frailties.

Assuming Joseph Smith indeed "committed" polyandry, was his polyandry not acceptable to God? I think God has made it abundantly clear how severe a sin unchaste behavior is. Do you think he would let this slide, given that Joseph was His prophet?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Assuming Joseph Smith "committed" polyandry, was his polyandry not acceptable to God? I think God has made it abundantly clear how severe a sin unchaste behavior is. Do you think he would let this slide, given that Joseph was His prophet?

Perhaps, he paid for it in other ways. I will not be Joseph's judge. It is simply strange and doesn't fit on a nice polished platter. And it is reality.

Is it also possible that although a prophet, it was not acceptable? Why else did others not practice it to our knowledge? But that God has a different plan for Joseph in light of that? I think you limit the possibilities too much, wanting to force a round peg into a square hole. A man can be a prophet and still sin. I can accept the prophetic role and that he did things not becoming a prophet. Perhaps this is why the Church is loathe to disclose it, because there is no nice pre-packaged answer that explains it.

We like our lives and presentations to be power point ready, complete without deviations. Examination of any soul's life will show anything but the Truman Show.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

A man can be a prophet and still sin.

That statement only goes so far. When prophets have sinned egregiously enough in the past, (David, Moses, Joseph Smith and the 116 pages) this has resulted in documented discipline from God.

I'm willing to bet that IF

1. Joseph Smith engaged in the polyandry documented by Bushman
2. It was not endorsed by God

There would have been serious repercussions.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

That statement only goes so far. When prophets have sinned egregiously enough in the past, (David, Moses, Joseph Smith and the 116 pages) this has resulted in documented discipline from God.

I'm willing to bet that IF

1. Joseph Smith engaged in the polyandry documented by Bushman
2. It was not endorsed by God

There would have been serious repercussions.

Joseph Smth was incarcerated, tarred and feathered, beaten and murdered. (In fact, some speculate that the reason he was hated by at least some groups was his marriage to young girls and the wives of other men). His life is replete with repercussions.

I don't believe immediate consequences always follow every sin, even serious ones. God had so much invested in Joseph by that time, letting him fall may not have been allowable.

Was the kingship removed from David?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Joseph Smth was incarcerated, tarred and feathered, beaten and murdered. His life is replete with repercussions.

I don't believe immediate consequences always follow every sin, even serious ones. God had so much invested in Joseph by that time, letting him fall may not have been allowable.

Was the kingship removed from David?

I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts if what Joseph Smith did was wrong and he continued to do it over a lengthy period of time and with multiple women, that God wasn't going to all of the sudden go laissez-faire with him and take him to task about it in the Hereafter.

Kingship <> Prophet

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’ ” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...004d82620a____

[jay santos]

Polygamy's obviously not a secret in the church. I was very young when I learned of it. I have ancestors that were polygamous. It was taught to me in a way that was more of something to be proud of than be ashamed of. (and yeah i ended that with a preposition--who was that did that last week? that was pretty funny. i always feel like doing the same thing)

As a college student at BYU I started getting more interested in church history and learned more.

The JS involved in polygamy thing or involved in it, sexually, has always been a strange issue. I was taught by some people (maybe not necessarily taught but this was the view of others when it came up in discussions), that JS married many women but only had sex with Emma. And that was important to them, even though other church leaders obviously participated i polygamy in the full blown way including sexually. So during this time period (post mission/student) when I came across beliefs of people that JS had more than one sexual partner, it was presented to me as shocking but it didn't feel shocking--that's the whole point of polygamy, right?

Then over time I became exposed to more theories some just in the last five years: that JS had possibly a non-polygamous affair that he may or may not have used polygamy as the cover up, that JS taught polyandry as well as polygamy and may have encouraged Emma to enter into this, that JS approached certain men's wives to become his wife as well, etc.

My view of it now is: things were seriously messed up and that the teaching and doctrine on polygamy changed and evolved so much and has since been eliminated, that I'm comfortable with my belief that the whole thing was a series of misforunate events, and that God did not intend for any of it to happen at all. But also it doesn't take away from JS and BY being great men and great prophets and receiving other important revelations.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Polygamy's obviously not a secret in the church. I was very young when I learned of it. I have ancestors that were polygamous. It was taught to me in a way that was more of something to be proud of than be ashamed of. (and yeah i ended that with a preposition--who was that did that last week? that was pretty funny. i always feel like doing the same thing)

As a college student at BYU I started getting more interested in church history and learned more.

The JS involved in polygamy thing or involved in it, sexually, has always been a strange issue. I was taught by some people (maybe not necessarily taught but this was the view of others when it came up in discussions), that JS married many women but only had sex with Emma. And that was important to them, even though other church leaders obviously participated i polygamy in the full blown way including sexually. So during this time period (post mission/student) when I came across beliefs of people that JS had more than one sexual partner, it was presented to me as shocking but it didn't feel shocking--that's the whole point of polygamy, right?

Then over time I became exposed to more theories some just in the last five years: that JS had possibly a non-polygamous affair that he may or may not have used polygamy as the cover up, that JS taught polyandry as well as polygamy and may have encouraged Emma to enter into this, that JS approached certain men's wives to become his wife as well, etc.

My view of it now is: things were seriously messed up and that the teaching and doctrine on polygamy changed and evolved so much and has since been eliminated, that I'm comfortable with my belief that the whole thing was a series of misforunate events, and that God did not intend for any of it to happen at all. But also it doesn't take away from JS and BY being great men and great prophets and receiving other important revelations.

Good post, jay.

There are a few weirder things that I'm certain should be posted. It does appear to have been a messed up situation that took a while to clean up.