is it only me thats confused......

[fusnik11]

i will encroach on a sensitive subject that most lds people here will be able to in some way relate....

it deals with sexual intimacy before marriage and if you do not want to read about that i suggest you cease now. i have a few questions which dont quite make sense to a 25 year old single boy trying to figure out his place in life. mind you these questions and opinions i have come from my personal interactions, my friends interactions at byu, and the interactions of people i currently hang out with now....

to the questions/comments....

do we all know what dry humping is? its, i believe, a mormon only thing where a couple engages in sexual simulation with all of their clothes on. a female can generally orgasm if done correctly and a boy can orgasm as well if he is inexperienced. young lds couples do this quite frequently and it has become a norm with many couples as a safe way to be sexual.

now we all know what petting is id assume. touching with our hands the intimate parts of another person. id classify touching boobs below the clothes and touching a womans vaginal area above the clothes as petting, and touching her below clothes as heavy petting, same thing applies to a woman touching a man.

now the questions and comments....i have talked to many people, as in more than 100, about their comfort level with certain sexual activity. the overwhelming opinion is this, and if you have a different experience please share....

touching boobs, letting someone touch your boobs, touching reproductive organs, all land you a one way ticket to the bishops office for confession and penalty. dry humping, the act of a mans penis rubbing on a womans vagina for ultimate satisfaction, by this i mean orgasm and use the term ultimate losely, is a shady practice but doesnt warrant a visit to the bishops office. the reason in the disconnect between dry humping and touching boobs and why one needs confession and the other does not? peoples experience. if a couple confesses to dry humping a bishop will 9 out of 10 times say just dont do it anymore, you guys are ok. if a couple goes to a bishop saying, i let him feel my boobs, you get a couple of weeks without the sacrament and a weekly interview for a month until you guys are past your sin....

why is this? why is it 'ok' for a couple to dry hump but not 'ok' for a woman to allow a man to touch her boobs? why is it ok to rub your penis on a womans vagina yet not ok to rub a girls vagina, or allow her to touch your penis over your pants?

it makes me believe this, and if im on a road to apostasy please tell me. i think the law of chastity is a law of physical health not one of spiritual. i think its a law to protect families from being fragmented from pre-marital pregnancies. does it affect you spiritually? naturally because of the guilt we feel because we are taught for so long that it is wrong, but i think the guilt we feel is what lessens our spirituality not the deed, and i think a large part of the guilt comes from the incessant teachings we receive that it is wrong....

anyways does this at all make any sense? and no, im not searching for ways i can rationalize behaviors i want to partake of with my new girlfriend. i think if you are avoiding sex, and avoiding oral sex, you are a ok with me....

[DrumNFeather]

I know for sure that in all the singles wards I've ever been in "dry humping" has been treated the same way as everything else...if not more so...I think when I was at Ricks the bishopric member called it "Levi Lovin." I think that anything that is going to lead you down a path of stimulation of any kind is deemed inappropriate...including petting and dry humping.

It goes to the whole intent idea. Are you trying to be physically affectionate without breaking any rules (pushing the limits of how far you can go)?

Maybe i'm wrong, but those things to me fall in line with Near Beer, DeCaf Coffee and other such things...eventually if you tempt fate you're going to go over the edge. It'd be interesting to talk to a bishop and find out if the church makes any distinction or if it is mostly at the discretion of the bishop.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

I know for sure that in all the singles wards I've ever been in "dry humping" has been treated the same way as everything else...if not more...I think when I was at Ricks the bishopric member called it "Levi Lovin." I think that anything that is going to lead you down a path of stimulation of any kind is deemed in appropriate...including petting and dry humping.

have i just been in apostate wards? ive had 6 bishops since i have been home from my mission and i can say i have a real close relationship with 4 of them. i know for a fact all 4 of them would have dismissed levi loving as not a valid reason to confess to the bishop....are they obvlious to what levi loving really is?

[Indy Coug]

Just because you don't have to confess to the bishop (which I'm dubious of to begin with), doesn't mean it's OK to do.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Just because you don't have to confess to the bishop (which I'm dubious of to begin with), doesn't mean it's OK to do.

That is correct. One should not necessarily expect a Bishop's reaction to sin to be the official end-all judgement of all such situations. As people have observed, not all Bishops would do the same thing.

This brings up the importance of avoiding sin in the first place, and realizing that sin is about what takes you away from God (not just a ledger of acts and regulations).

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

That is correct. One should not necessarily expect a Bishop's reaction to sin to be the official end-all judgement of all such situations. As people have observed, not all Bishops would do the same thing.

This brings up the importance of avoiding sin in the first place, and realizing that sin is about what takes you away from God (not just a ledger of acts and regulations).

maybe a good subsequent question is this....

how bad is it? is it fair to members who commit sexual sin to be subjected to such an arbitrary opinion especially when their membership is on the line?

i see sexual sin, not oral or intercourse, as being as bad as kissing a girl on your mission. should you kiss a girl on your mission? probably not, but is it sinning? no, you are just breaking rules. rules that have changed and that will change in the future.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

That is correct. One should not necessarily expect a Bishop's reaction to sin to be the official end-all judgement of all such situations. As people have observed, not all Bishops would do the same thing.

This brings up the importance of avoiding sin in the first place, and realizing that sin is about what takes you away from God (not just a ledger of acts and regulations).

We had an interesting remark made by our stake pres at the last stake conf...he noted that we need to make sure that we not waste bishop's time with minor infractions that could easily be handled by us and the lord...and so, while the major infractions still go through priesthood leadership, some minor things or...less serious can be handle through personal prayer and what not.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

We had an interesting remark made by our stake pres at the last stake conf...he noted that we need to make sure that we not waste bishop's time with minor infractions that could easily be handled by us and the lord...and so, while the major infractions still go through priesthood leadership, some minor things or...less serious can be handle through personal prayer and what not.

so what is serious and what is less serious?

thats the problem with confession to a bishop, you never know what you are going to get as they are all super different. and how does one reconcile that with the spirit driving the repentence process? because trust me the process is different with every bishop, in every stake, and every ward across the world. how can the spirit react so differently on essentially the same sin?

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

i have talked to many people, as in more than 100, about their comfort level with certain sexual activity. the overwhelming opinion is this, and if you have a different experience please share

I have to admit that this cracked me up. I'm not sure I'm even on a speaking basis with 100 different, let alone know 100 people well enough that I would query them on their respective stances on dry-humping versus genital manipulation. I just hope you're not approaching random strangers with these questions. When you're in line at Albertsons, do you tap the shoulder of the lady in front of you and say, "Excuse me, you don't know me but what do you think about sexual outercourse?"

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I have to admit that this cracked me up. I'm not sure I'm even on a speaking basis with 100 different, let alone know 100 people well enough that I would query them on their respective stances on dry-humping versus genital manipulation. I just hope you're not approaching random strangers with these questions. When you're in line at Albertsons, do you tap the shoulder of the lady in front of you and say, "Excuse me, you don't know me but I'd be really interested to know your feelings on the spiritual ramifications of the various forms of sexual outercourse."

ha ha...

check it out. ive been home from my mission for over 4 years. ive attended 3 isntitutions of higher education since graduating from high school. i have a group of 5 friends who are about as cool as it comes and before their marriages were very active with the ladies. i have been part of elders quorum presidencies, been a sunday school teacher, family home evening parent, etc. i have my own home now that is constantly occupied by groups of people 4-5 times a night. i myself am a very open individual and dont find sexual discussion as a difficult subject to talk about. so although it seems like a lot, if i hang out with 1 new group of 4-5 girls a month, of which half of the groups will be comfortable with talking about sex that easily puts me at over 100 individuals. but then again my math could be off, or my sense of reality could be off as well.