Abraham/Isaac sacrifice

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Coitus interruptus is a form of birth control.

I realize that.

I'm confused... God killed someone for practicing coitus interruptus, so this couple you know doesn't use it and the wife gets pregnant?

Again, having sex without using any form of birth control = pregnancy. Can't be unplanned.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar

I find it more amusing than troubling, a mortal author's attempt at explaining why bad things happen to us. I don't regard it as doctrine, although it's useful when defending an occasional trip to the tables. I assume it goes without saying I do not believe in the literal truth of the book.

One of my favorite parts is when the friends/home teachers visit Job and take turns at trying to figure out why Job got on God's craplist.

I said "odd", not "troubling".

I always assumed that the story of Job was a highly-embellished legend meant to teach a principle that was eventually recorded as scripture. A legend which may have originated with some poor man who seemed to suffer greatly and yet bear his burdens with dignity and humility. And in the telling and retelling of the story, the more bizarre elements were added to spice things up and make it more powerful.

[ute4ever]

Would now be a good time to bring up the She-Bears?

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Would now be a good time to bring up the She-Bears?

Ooh, that's a good one. Don't mess with the prophet, man. Especially if you're a kid.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Would now be a good time to bring up the She-Bears?

Lingo's dad never taught him about the birds and the bees.

Lingo: When you ejaculate into a vagina, then the chances of pregnancy are greater than when you don't ejaculate into a vagina.

There is such a thing as pre-ejaculatory fluid, which contains fewer sperm than ejaculate.

Coitus interruptus decreases the chances of pregnancy. However, some sperm are very strong swimmers. Because of this, pre-ejaculatory fluid is sometimes enough to fertilize an egg.

Birth control is about decreasing the chances of pregnancy. Sometimes condoms don't work. It doesn't mean that condoms aren't birth control. Coitus interruptus is less effective than a condom, but more effective than ejaculating into a vagina.

Sometimes HIV passes through condoms. This doesn't mean that condoms don't decrease the transmission rate for HIV.

[JohnnyLingo]

Sooner, I know all this stuff. Spare the lecture.

What I don't get is how this Old Testament account has anything to do with your friend and his wife getting pregnant.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Sooner, I know all this stuff. Spare the lecture.

What I don't get is how this Old Testament account has anything to do with your friend and his wife getting pregnant.

I want to know why God killed Onan, but not my friend. Has God become more relaxed with age?

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I think the stories are fine if they are interpreted this way:

1) Written by ancient non-prophets who were describing and interpreting awful events

AND/OR

2) Pure mythology that speaks to every human being's desire to understand why life tends to suck from time to time

But when people ponder what these stories tell us about God, then I tune out, because these stories aren't about God. I think these stories are about people writing stories. They might be entertaining stories, and they might tell us something about humanity and they might even be beautifully written...but that doesn't make me embrace them as theology.

I can't discuss this crap with Lingo because he's too far gone.

That's fine. I think providing a framework and explaining what you find valuable is far more useful even on a board where one-liners are highly prized. I don't think you are giving the OT enough credit, but I appreciate the effort. I think there is great theological worth in the book of Job. I would approach the book like the following:

Job Lesson notes

I think in general people try to draw theological or doctrinal inferences from details of the story and then they miss the overriding theological points. The details of Job aren't meant to describe or establish specific theological points. Instead the details are meant to focus the reader on the overriding theological or doctrinal themes.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I want to know why God killed Onan, but not my friend. Has God become more relaxed with age?

I am not going to answer this question because I don't think it is important but I do want to defend the Onan story in general. I find this story very interesting for the contrast it provides with the Joseph story (which it is sandwiched in the middle of). Also, it continues the theme of reversal. Once again the first born is not righteous and his fate is highlighted. This continues a very important theme in the OT where the firstborn incurs God's displeasure. Why? Why is this such an important theme? Does this theme tell us someting about God even if we find some of the specific detauls of the reversal events distasteful or weird from a modern perspective? Is the theme of reversal as important in the NT?If If so how is reversal different or similar in the OT and NT? Is this an important source of continuity between the OT and NT?

Also let me add that Onan reversal is at least two fold. It is ironic that he is essentially called to serve his younger brother (Judah calls him to serve his younger brother when Judah refused to do exactly this with Joseph). He refuses to do this and is punished by God. We can think of many other examples where this specific reversal is highlighted. I think there is some room for a nice discussion instead of giggling over the description of a sexual act.

The story is full of irony; Judah invented the lie told to his father about the "death" of Joseph. He loses two sons very quickly. His lack of grief in these verses provides contrast to Jacob's grief upon learning about Joseph's death

[JohnnyLingo]

It is odd that none of the firstborn sons of the Old Testament manage to keep the birthright.

Maybe it's a lesson on how we can't ever think we have it made. Just because there may be certain blessings associated with membership in the Church or whatever doesn't mean we can't lose those blessings.