ADAM - Slow Down and Enjoy the Ride

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Solon

How could you expect not to sound condescending?

Solon was also a war hero.

Wow, I thought Dan was very careful not to sound condescending. To me, it sounded like he was trying to simultaneously commiserate and encourage Adam.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Dan

Thank you for kind words, though that is not what I am seeking. I have never really interacted much with Seattle Ute, Solon and Triplet Daddy before, but I am sorry if you misunderstand tender words in the warped way you apparently saw them.

I am speaking of a cross-roads that many come to when they uncover too much LDS history. It is a crossroads that many try to straddle for a long time, but in the end they are normally forced to chose a direction out of the church or in the church.

This cross-roads comes at different ages for different people, it all depends on the timing of when they start making their discoveries. This cross-roads is a gut wrenching experience and can last for years. A number of you or a lot of you, I assume, know what I am talking about here. It appears to me that Adam is in the cross-roads cross-hairs. I gave a very brief description of how I found peace for myself in a way that allowed me to again find joy in the church and to focus on the real purpose of the church. Many people in this cross-roads choose differently, like a seattle ute or a Richard Dutcher or whoever, and they leave the church. Everyone has their choice.

Of course we all go through many cross-roads in life, but the one I am talking about specifically is that pertaining to the church after discovery of certain things related to the church. Too many people try to act in a manner that Adam is acting and in the big picture it is not their place to do so in that manner and if the behavior continues it leads people at that cross-roads out of the church. That is fine if it what he or anyone wants to do, and I will not lose any sleep over it. But I generally care enough for my spirit brothers and sisters that I am willing to extend a hand through words of encouragement, or whatever.

I am sorry if people completely miss my point and focus on something unintended (eg, Solon). And for someone who complains a lot about Nibley's brief and spotted review of Brody, seattle ute is quick to jump on board with a "review" of a simple post of mine of even lesser quality. Yes I know there was probably a bit of sarcasm and good natured fun in some of the responses, but Solon did not do justice to his namesake, that is for sure.

One quibble I have with your analysis is that it implies that Adam has made some recent discovery of troubling church history. If you truly have followed his posts over the long term, you will know that he has made a lifetime of research on church history and doctrine. He probably documents his arguments with actual quotes and references more than anyone on the board. From my perspective, I think Adam has served the church long and generously in spite of his "issues". Good for him.

I would also disagree on your description of him "steadying the ark" in a "public" fashion. We have no evidence whatsoever that he has done anything but rant on an anonymous message board.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

One quibble I have with your analysis is that it implies that Adam has made some recent discovery of troubling church history. If you truly have followed his posts over the long term, you will know that he has made a lifetime of research on church history and doctrine. He probably documents his arguments with actual quotes and references more than anyone on the board. From my perspective, I think Adam has served the church long and generously in spite of his "issues". Good for him.

I would also disagree on your description of him "steadying the ark" in a "public" fashion. We have no evidence whatsoever that he has done anything but rant on an anonymous message board.

Sorry but I disagree.

Cheering for Dook is grounds for excommunication.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

One quibble I have with your analysis is that it implies that Adam has made some recent discovery of troubling church history. If you truly have followed his posts over the long term, you will know that he has made a lifetime of research on church history and doctrine. He probably documents his arguments with actual quotes and references more than anyone on the board. From my perspective, I think Adam has served the church long and generously in spite of his "issues". Good for him.

I would also disagree on your description of him "steadying the ark" in a "public" fashion. We have no evidence whatsoever that he has done anything but rant on an anonymous message board.

Those are valid points. Adam continues to serve faithfully and is one of the best two or three posters in terms of historical Church knowledge. I can't determine who knows more from among, SIEQ, Pelagius, Adam or Lebowski, but those four have a breadth of Church knowledge and actually one who is very well read, but likes to hide behind humor is Goatnapper.

[SoonerCoug]

Dan,

I think you overstated the Church's perfection. The Church organization is not even close to perfect. The Church has too much involvement in people's personal lives, IMO.

But I agree that Adam shouldn't be so upset about it. It's not easy to have a very high functioning, centralized world religion without a little tyranny now and then. I think Adam would be happier if he lowered his expectations.

Sincerely,

SoonerCoug

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Dan

I am speaking of a cross-roads that many come to when they uncover too much LDS history. It is a crossroads that many try to straddle for a long time, but in the end they are normally forced to chose a direction out of the church or in the church.

Certainly the discovery of "too much" LDS history can lead to a crisis of faith, or as you refer to it a "cross roads". With relatively broad and easy access to previously undisclosed and sometimes troubling historical data, it would appear logical to assume many members are experiencing their own personal crises of faith.

The question du jour is how to reconcile the discovery of new historical facts with personal faith. Consider the dilemma of lifelong members who now harbor doubts about the historicity, yet have deep cultural and family ties to the Church. Is it implicit in your advice to Adam that it is better to stay even if you doubt, if for nothing more than to maintain family and social stability? I would postulate there are many "straddlers" who outwardly stay in the Church rather than risk social isolation.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I agree with you. I am also worried for your daughter....

How reassuring.

[MikeWaters]

Dan,

If you have read the McKay biography, would you have said a similar thing to Sterling McMurrin, as you have said to Adam? To Juanita Brooks? Hugh B. Brown (who circumvented McKay at times)?

It's like you are saying that the Adam of 2008 not only doesn't help the church, he harms the church (I'm talking about his views and posts, not his personal service in his ward).

I also have an issue with the "perfect organization." Convert baptisms DOWN in the southwestern United States. Lowest percentage of males any US religion outside of two (JW and histor. black protestant). I think you are going to see a lot of changes to this "perfect" organization, with hopes that it will become "more perfect", because there are many things that are not "most perfect" right now.

Adam has a vision for the church where the church embraces the Good. Where it comes to represent the things that Christ taught in the beattitude and how Christ lived his life.

But as I've told the board before: this is not a church with a single suggestion-box. No one is interested in your opinion. Period. This is a top-down organization, and Jesus is at the top, and for the ideas to come from the bottom is like Joe Blow giving advice to Jesus. Nothing could be more insulting. Normally this does not work well for organizations. If spirituality has an entrepreneuial aspect, it won't thrive in this kind of environment. So what do we get? Constant talks and speeches about our failings. You aren't doing member missionary work. You aren't doing geneology work. Your home teaching stinks. You aren't going to the temple. The message is "you must be perfect, and guess what, you are a failure." It takes a spirtually wise person to brush this off and be happy and continue forward. I reject your ideas of "perfection" and actually believe that I have scriptural reason to do so. Beware he who says all is well in Zion.

Maybe your words are great wisdom for every single person in the world. Maybe not. Maybe each person has different role, a different mission, a different path. I don't have the guts to tell you that you are on the wrong path, and I certainly am not going to tell Adam he is on the wrong path.

There but for the grace of God go I. War Mormons.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Dan

... if they sort of ignore the plain intent of what I was saying, and were looking at me as having cynical ultierior motives or something. As if I need to indulge in such prideful nonsense. IMO, your reaction to what I said probably reveals A LOT more about you than your review did about the intent of my original post.

Reveals what? That I don't like condescension?

I don't know how Adam will take / did take this. I don't claim to speak for him. That's his business and yours.

I believe you meant well.

But since you posted it here, and it sounded pretty condescending to me, I thought I'd indicate as much.

[Dan]

Fair points.

I am not implying Adam has only recently started down the road of troubling church history. I mentioned in a prior post that this cross-roads period can cover a number of years before something has to give one way or another. But I believe sooner or later something will give for Adam or anyone in a position of such apparent frustration. I have seen Adam post for probably over a five year period, stretching back to the early 2000s on cougarboard. It has not been until the last two or three years that I noticed quite a bit of hostility or resentment that appears to coming to a critical mass at some point. My cause of concern is that I have experienced this myself and I have seen others go through this as well, with different individuals ultimately reaching different long term results.

Adam my well have a larger historical library than me now and may be more 'well read' with LDS history than I am. If people are reading 4-6 books a month on LDS history and theology for one or two decades they are going to invariably read many of the same things. What it comes down to is the reaction a person has to the information they drink in. That brings the discussion back to the cross-roads. Different people choose to go in different directions. All I am doing is trying to suggest if there is a desire to remain in the church, a sense of peace and satisfaction, eventually, will need to be obtained. It cannot be obtained while continually arguing subjectively about words and actions of local and general leaders in the church.

I would not say that Adam has up to this point tried to steady the ark, but he is not a completely annonymous figure on the board. And as time goes on, a constant drum beat can turn into something similar to steadying the ark, especially if in the future, the actions turn into things like writing letters to the editor of public papers, speaking to groups publically. Of course, the higher one's standing in the church (bishop, high councilman, etc.) the more closely that person will be scrutinized for such 'ark steadying.'

I hope no one feels I have suggested Adam is not providing valuable service to the church as I have noticed in the past he has appeared more willing to do so and take certain steps than others, at least by his tenacity of discussion on certain topics. I have been focusing primarily on spirituality going forward, and how certain attitudes can be damaging to that.