ADAM - Slow Down and Enjoy the Ride

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Dan,

If you have read the McKay biography, would you have said a similar thing to Sterling McMurrin, as you have said to Adam? To Juanita Brooks? Hugh B. Brown (who circumvented McKay at times)?

Sterling McMurrin went about it the wrong way. As did Juanita Brooks. Hugh B. Brown ... gah, the McKay book may be the most misquoted and misunderstood text on this message board.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Adam has a vision for the church where the church embraces the Good. Where it comes to represent the things that Christ taught in the beattitude and how Christ lived his life.

And he goes about it by being the sourest, most critical, most angry, and occasionally most hateful poster around. If he wants people to live the beattitudes better, he should start with himself.

No one ever got someone to "embrace the Good" by shouting them down.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

But as I've told the board before: this is not a church with a single suggestion-box.

Wrong again. There's prayer, which President Packer has called the only authorized "end run" around the general authorities.

It is interesting that you want to see a divine organization run more and more by human standards. Your suggestions would arguably make it worse at what it does than better.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Lowest percentage of males any US religion outside of two (JW and histor. black protestant).

In the former Soviet Union, we weren't allowed to teach women at all unless potential male converts were also hearing the discussions. That rule applied to sister missionaries too. There was so little priesthood in Russia that the Church couldn't function well at all.

I predict that women will get the priesthood for the same reason blacks got the priesthood. The Church will eventually be forced to do it for logistical reasons.

If women had the priesthood, Church growth would be remarkable in places where low numbers of men limit its growth. Our baptisms in Russia plummeted because we couldn't teach women, and women were always lined up to hear the discussion and join the Church.

[MikeWaters]

Maybe I should pray to be an apostle. Who will join me? I want to make an end-run.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

In the former Soviet Union, we weren't allowed to teach women at all unless potential male converts were also hearing the discussions. That rule applied to sister missionaries too. There was so little priesthood in Russia that the Church couldn't function well at all.

I predict that women will get the priesthood for the same reason blacks got the priesthood. The Church will eventually be forced to do it for logistical reasons.

If women had the priesthood, Church growth would be remarkable in places where low numbers of men limit its growth. Our baptisms in Russia plummeted because we couldn't teach women, and women were always lined up to hear the discussion and join the Church.

I see no eternal principle that women cannot act in the name of God with his authority. So women having the priesthood violates no sacred cow, for me.

The main problem I see with the extremely limited role of women in the church (and yes I do think it is extreme, in terms of the leadership input of men vs. women), is that we are not tapping the potential of the women, and the women themselves have untapped potential that will never come out because of lack of opportunity.

But I could be wrong.

I wonder if the tremendous demands placed on men in the church, in terms of expectations and volunteer service, drive many men away. The church is a kind of all-in or all-out institution. Casual male members are brow-beaten until they come either all-in or all-out, I am afraid.

[Dan]

If someone like Adam wanted to stay in the church, then my suggestion stands. If someone like Adam honestly felt inside that he would not be happy in it, then I would ask why bother spending so much time to 'fix' something that is someone like Adam will not personally be able to 'fix' and that he knows inside he will not be happy with anyway.

Mike - I knew I shouldn't have suggested the perfection of the church, as I knew there would be misunderstanding. My comment was that is is perfect in its imperfections. It is hard for me to adequately explain what I meant but recognizing that it certainly does have imperfections, and certainly not all is well in Zion, what I meant to get across is that the church can function in everyone's life to the magnified degree that everyone is willing to pour effort into it. It is there to help anyone become a spiritual giant if that person is willing to allow that to happen. I am not suggesting that administrative changes could not be made, etc.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Dan

If someone like Adam wanted to stay in the church, then my suggestion stands. If someone like Adam honestly felt inside that he would not be happy in it, then I would ask why bother spending so much time to 'fix' something that is someone like Adam will not personally be able to 'fix' and that he knows inside he will not be happy with anyway.

Mike - I knew I shouldn't have suggested the perfection of the church, as I knew there would be misunderstanding. My comment was that is is perfect in its imperfections. It is hard for me to adequately explain what I meant but recognizing that it certainly does have imperfections, and certainly not all is well in Zion, what I meant to get across is that the church can function in everyone's life to the magnified degree that everyone is willing to pour effort into it. It is there to help anyone become a spiritual giant if that person is willing to allow that to happen. I am not suggesting that administrative changes could not be made, etc.

The discussion is healthy, but I submit Adam isn't going any where.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Dan

Fair points.

FWIW, Dan, I felt where you were coming from. I have many of the same thoughts myself. I think this is a good place for people to do a bit of venting and testing of ideas that it is not "safe" to do in other venues, but I too have monitored at least what I perceive to be the emotional levels of some.

I think there are a great many here that are in the process of figuring out what the church means to them and how they fit into it after having gained a more mature understanding of it. As you say, it is a process. I am a big proponent of that struggle leading to a place within the church rather than without as I think you are.

Anyway, I felt the compassion and empathy in what you said. Thanks for your thoughts. We can always use more examples in the church and around here of people who have fought the demons and stayed in. Its not the only path, but in my opinion it is the best one.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Dan

If someone like Adam wanted to stay in the church, then my suggestion stands. If someone like Adam honestly felt inside that he would not be happy in it, then I would ask why bother spending so much time to 'fix' something that is someone like Adam will not personally be able to 'fix' and that he knows inside he will not be happy with anyway.

Mike - I knew I shouldn't have suggested the perfection of the church, as I knew there would be misunderstanding. My comment was that is is perfect in its imperfections. It is hard for me to adequately explain what I meant but recognizing that it certainly does have imperfections, and certainly not all is well in Zion, what I meant to get across is that the church can function in everyone's life to the magnified degree that everyone is willing to pour effort into it. It is there to help anyone become a spiritual giant if that person is willing to allow that to happen. I am not suggesting that administrative changes could not be made, etc.

Do you think other churches can help people become spiritual giants? If not, why?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

FWIW, Dan, I felt where you were coming from. I have many of the same thoughts myself. I think this is a good place for people to do a bit of venting and testing of ideas that it is not "safe" to do in other venues, but I too have monitored at least what I perceive to be the emotional levels of some.

I think there are a great many here that are in the process of figuring out what the church means to them and how they fit into it after having gained a more mature understanding of it. As you say, it is a process. I am a big proponent of that struggle leading to a place within the church rather than without as I think you are.

Anyway, I felt the compassion and empathy in what you said. Thanks for your thoughts. We can always use more examples in the church and around here of people who have fought the demons and stayed in. Its not the only path, but in my opinion it is the best one.

Of course, there will be hundreds more pointing Adam to the door and showing no empathy.

[Dan]

Full salvation, IMO, cannot be obtained without first being willing to sacrifice all things. The church helps facilitate such focused devotion by its members. Though the members can be misguided at times, it really is an all-in decision. Those who are teetering on that decision or who are going back and forth are always stretched out to in the hope they will eventually come all-in.