Gay Mormons committing suicide

[MikeWaters]

by the way, I deleted my harsher statements before you posted your reply.

Your most cogent thought in this thread is that I wasw demeaning you in my last post.

That's batting under the Mendoza line, my friend.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

by the way, I deleted my harsher statements before you posted your reply.

Your most cogent thought in this thread is that I wasw demeaning you in my last post.

That's batting under the Mendoza line, my friend.

Well let's look at the suggestion that LDS culture some how contributes to a supposed increased rate of suicide among young adult LDS males. The postulate would be that the emphasis on not pursuing gay relationships would force those conflicted with their internal instincts with the philosophy which they seek to adhere to, into a miserable state of cognitive dissonance, thus contributing to more suicides.

I may be a lousy scientist, in that I concur, but I understand meaning and rhetoric. So I understand your inferences.

But as I understand analysis of mental aspects as they interact with congenital impulses, it seems too linear to infer a causal relationship. It would be interesting to see if a meaningful reliable study could be constructed. The problem I see would be controls and definitions. Again I'm no researcher but some of this doesn't require being a scientist, just understanding the process.

Relying upon urban myths bother me.

I remember years ago on Utefans when the statement of Utah's morals contributing to "one of the highest rates of teen pregnancies". I quickly turned to the CDC to discover that the myth, not only was false, but dead wrong. Utah may have a teen pregnancy problem as does our entire union, but at that time the data showed, the myth was wrong.

So when some playwright opines Utah has some suicide problem in excess of others I can imagine finding similar contradictory evidence. Heck, I seem to remember black male suicide rates to be astronomical in certain urban centers. Now to be fair, I recognize the suggestion that LDS gays may have higher suicide rate than other gays, but suicide is certainly a much bigger problem in other segments of the population.

[Jeff Lebowski]

First of all, let me state that from day one I have been on record as supportive of gay rights and critical of how we treat gays both in the LDS church and in Mormon culture at large. I believe that this is the "priesthood ban" of our generation and it will eventually change. I do not doubt that gay church members face tremendous hardships that most of us cannot begin to fully comprehend.

Nevertheless, whenever I hear statistics about suicide rates in Utah and/or the LDS church my bullshit meter starts to red-line. I have seen these stats debunked time and time again. Perhaps the stats are correct in this case. If so, it shouldn't be too tough to find some hard data to back it up.

By the way, here is an article about a study directly related to suicide rates within the LDS church:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/ld...icideRate.html

For the record: I don't have any gay family members, but I have had a family member commit suicide.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

First of all, let me state that from day one I have been on record as supportive of gay rights and critical of how we treat gays both in the LDS church and in Mormon culture at large. I believe that this is the "priesthood ban" of our generation and it will eventually change. I do not doubt that gay church members face tremendous hardships that most of us cannot begin to fully comprehend.

Nevertheless, whenever I hear statistics about suicide rates in Utah and/or the LDS church my bullshit meter starts to red-line. I have seen these stats debunked time and time again. Perhaps the stats are correct in this case. If so, it shouldn't be too tough to find some hard data to back it up.

By the way, here is an article about a study directly related to suicide rates within the LDS church:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_LowSuicideRate.html

For the record: I don't have any gay family members, but I have had a family member commit suicide.

Because you hover over the middle ground, how do you see the Church resolving the matter theologically. To me, there is no theological resolution, thus that's why it only makes sense for gays to leave and hope the atonement some how makes up the difference, but perhaps other solutions exist.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Because you hover over the middle ground, how do you see the Church resolving the matter theologically. To me, there is no theological resolution, thus that's why it only makes sense for gays to leave and hope the atonement some how makes up the difference, but perhaps other solutions exist.

If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them. I don't see how you solve the theological problem either. As I have said before, I think this is sine qua non for the church. And yet the result seems cruel.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them. I don't see how you solve the theological problem either. As I have said before, I think this is sine qua non for the church. And yet the result seems cruel.

At one point I wasn't sympathetic, a confession. But now I am, but it is an unsolvable theological problem for me. Growing up and until the last ten years, I never knew any gays personally. Gradually I've met some extraordinary individuals and have sympathy.

So I take a cop out that God some how makes up for it for those who endure this situation through the miracle of the atonement, at least I hope so. Beyond that, it is extremely perplexing to me. The recent Italian study showing nature producing it to increase fecundity in female siblings.

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

"While we are opposed to gay marriage, we care for and are concerned about the welfare and happiness of gays in the church."

WHERE IS THIS SENTENCE?

Someone please point me to it, if they have in fact said something to this effect.

That's why, no, I don't think they care about these kids when it comes to this issue. Because there is a lack of compassion contained in it.

Is the church becoming more compassionate about gays? Yes. But it's not hard to get more compassionate than the position that was previously held. Do I think the parents of gay kids in the church feel any support? No I don't.

I think you don't hear that sentence because some general authorities don't believe that homosexuals exist. They have only admitted for the last 10-15 years that people may have inborn "same sex attraction" (rather than just being heterosexual perverts). The very existence of homosexuals seems contrary to Heavenly Father's plan for many believing Latter-Day Saints and certainly for many leaders. I was taught in seminary that God simply wouldn't be so cruel to make somebody a homosexual.

It makes things so much simpler if homosexuals are actually heterosexuals who have made a bad "lifestyle" choice. I think that is the imaginary world that some members and leaders are living in. If that is your mindset, you don't even want to acknowledge that there may be "gays in the Church" to be concerned about.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

As I suspected, only one person out of many suspect it.

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

First of all, let me state that from day one I have been on record as supportive of gay rights and critical of how we treat gays both in the LDS church and in Mormon culture at large. I believe that this is the "priesthood ban" of our generation and it will eventually change. I do not doubt that gay church members face tremendous hardships that most of us cannot begin to fully comprehend.

Nevertheless, whenever I hear statistics about suicide rates in Utah and/or the LDS church my bullshit meter starts to red-line. I have seen these stats debunked time and time again. Perhaps the stats are correct in this case. If so, it shouldn't be too tough to find some hard data to back it up.

By the way, here is an article about a study directly related to suicide rates within the LDS church:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/ld...icideRate.html

For the record: I don't have any gay family members, but I have had a family member commit suicide.

Sorry. Link was broken. Try it again:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/ld...icideRate.html

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Because you hover over the middle ground, how do you see the Church resolving the matter theologically. To me, there is no theological resolution, thus that's why it only makes sense for gays to leave and hope the atonement some how makes up the difference, but perhaps other solutions exist.

That's an excellent question. I am not sure I have an answer for all of the details required to resolve the issue. Ironically, I think a marriage or commitment of some sort would be part of the answer, but the church is currently rejecting that option. I think a significant change in the overall mindset of church members regarding homosexuality is necessary first, similar to how race relations evolved over time. I think it is happening, but it may take quite a while.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

That's an excellent question. I am not sure I have an answer for all of the details required to resolve the issue. Ironically, I think a marriage or commitment of some sort would be part of the answer, but the church is currently rejecting that option. I think a significant change in the overall mindset of church members regarding homosexuality is necessary first, similar to how race relations evolved over time. I think it is happening, but it may take quite a while.

Well the race relations was just kooky. Gay understanding has been consistent for a long time. It's something I'll just have to shelve because nature's reason for producing it makes no sense to me.