(Im)mutability of Same Gender Attraction

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm not interested in any interested lay person's speculation.

And be assured, many of us are getting pretty damn tired of yours.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Does anybody choose their sexual feelings? That sounds very odd especially coming from a physician.

Don't you think sexual identity and "feelings" are a product of your innate inner workings and learned from the environment?

You have hormonal impulses, which when coupled with environmental factors, affect sexuality.

Example, if a guy has heterosexual urges, but lives a modest lifestyle, ignoring pornography and prostitutes or lascivious lifestyle, as opposed to the same guy who goes to strip joints, engages in whatever pleases him, don't you think his innate traits are affected by his behavior?

It makes little sense to say anybody chooses feelings, but personal workings and environmental factors probably affect homosexuality just as they affect heterosexuality.

Wow, I didn't realize my one-line answer, obviously intended as a simplification of a very complex issue, would be put to such scrutiny...

Read the review I posted. I'll side with the science on this one, in that sexuality is a complex mixture of genetic predisposition, environmental factors, and lifestyle choices.

And being an ER doctor is a far cry from being an expert on human sexuality. So is being an attorney.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Wow, I didn't realize my one-line answer, obviously intended as a simplification of a very complex issue, would be put to such scrutiny...

Read the review I posted. I'll side with the science on this one, in that sexuality is a complex mixture of genetic predisposition, environmental factors, and lifestyle choices.

And being an ER doctor is a far cry from being an expert on human sexuality. So is being an attorney.

You just stated what most of us can read. OTOH, except for us attorneys, most of us are members of the human race, and we have an anecdote of one life experience regarding sexuality.

Did you choose your sexuality, or do you remember it always being there and always being hetero?

I remember from my earliest thoughts, which were fairly naive, of them being hetero. As a four or five year, one thinks of a naked lady and one gets a certain reaction. One's not sure why but it happens.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You just stated what most of us can read. OTOH, except for us attorneys, most of us are members of the human race, and we have an anecdote of one life experience regarding sexuality.

Did you choose your sexuality, or do you remember it always being there and always being hetero?

I remember from my earliest thoughts, which were fairly naive, of them being hetero. As a four or five year, one thinks of a naked lady and one gets a certain reaction. One's not sure why but it happens.

Isn't that exactly what I said in my original post? And in my one-liner? No, most people don't "choose" their sexuality. I do think there are exceptions, and continually stating your own experience doesn't seem to argue that there aren't.

Where exactly do we disagree?

[creekster]

IMO, and it is just O, as this is "not my field," anyone who states that any aspect of human sexual behavior can be characterized, described or predicted in absolute terms is either naive, stupid or ignoring their own experience. Moreover, I do nto agree that the issue of immutability is the bottom line here. It is certainly a key facotr in the enitre issue of how sociaety deals wioth gender attraction but it is not determiantive of the marriage question or of any other issue (by itself) in this area. Again, just my opinion.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by creekster

IMO, and it is just O, as this is "not my field," anyone who states that any aspect of human sexual behavior can be characterized, described or predicted in absolute terms is either naive, stupid or ignoring their own experience. Moreover, I do nto agree that the issue of immutability is the bottom line here. It is certainly a key facotr in the enitre issue of how sociaety deals wioth gender attraction but it is not determiantive of the marriage question or of any other issue (by itself) in this area. Again, just my opinion.

A valid opinion at that.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Isn't that exactly what I said in my original post? And in my one-liner? No, most people don't "choose" their sexuality. I do think there are exceptions, and continually stating your own experience doesn't seem to argue that there aren't.

Where exactly do we disagree?

I don't believe anybody chooses his or her sexuality. A person who may have divergent sexual feelings may engage in conduct that impacts those feelings, but I've read very little which suggests otherwise, and most of what I prefer to read on the subject is of a more clinical variety even though as you point out, I'm just a dumb lawyer.

Show me some clinical data that supports the thesis that some chose their sexuality.

[SeattleUte]

deleted dup.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

IMO, and it is just O, as this is "not my field," anyone who states that any aspect of human sexual behavior can be characterized, described or predicted in absolute terms is either naive, stupid or ignoring their own experience. Moreover, I do nto agree that the issue of immutability is the bottom line here. It is certainly a key facotr in the enitre issue of how sociaety deals wioth gender attraction but it is not determiantive of the marriage question or of any other issue (by itself) in this area. Again, just my opinion.

Of course you don't agree it's the bottom line. No one could and support Proposition 8. For some of us, it is the bottom line. We are talking about consenting adults here, and their only apparent means or chance of experiencing deeply rewarding romantic love and intimacy. Hence, my values say I want them to have the right to marry.

This is where science ends and values begin to govern.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Of course you don't agree it's the bottom line. No one could and support Proposition 8. For some of us, it is the bottom line. We are talking about consenting adults here, and their only apparent means of or chance to experiencing deeply rewarding romantic love and intimacy. Hence, my values say I want them to have the right to marry.

This is where science ends and values begin to govern.

I am surprised that you actually believe that two consenting adults may only achieve deeply rewarding romantic love and intimacy through receipt of the social imprimatur of marriage. I am so surprised that I don't believe you actually think that.