Temple Recommend required to work at BYU

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by Brian

Or my sister in law who is an art major. Figure drawing classes are done with people wearing leotards.
which i guess makes it a leotard drawing class.

When I was there, I'm pretty sure the models got to be nude.

Though the art department, I'm sure, is one which is probably very different from other universities.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Are you kidding me? A few quotes from a book published in 1985? Including the obligatory ETB quote? aaronshaf would be proud.

The fact that BYU has not chosen to expend the resources to build a dinosaur museum is not in any way conclusive proof that BYU is uneasy about paleontology. Honestly, counselor. Are we to conclude that BYU has doctrinal issues with modern medicine because it hasn't built a medical school?

In spite of anectdotal stories, anyone who thinks BYU routinely and systematically curtails discussions of evolution is simply wrong.

You are obviously pretty sensitive about this. I don't know that I have seen you get so riled up in a discussion before.

As I said, I could be wrong. I haven't been to BYU in years. I do know that the teaching of evolution has been an enormous issue in the past, perhaps it has since changed. I also know that my conversations at BYU were not nearly as open and frank as discussions I had at other universities.

Your point about the medical school is well taken, though I never said the lack of a museum was "conclusive proof" that BYU had a problem with paleantology. It is evidence of the issue, nothing more. The difference I see with the medical school is that medical schools cost a fortune. A world class museum would have been relatively inexpensive, would have made lots of money for the university if done correctly, and would have brought additional praise to the university. It never happened, and Oaks' letter to the Board of Trustees implies a concern that it wasn't happening because of doctrinal issues. Not conclusive evidence, but evidence all the same.

I don't know why people argue that academic freedom isn't an issue at BYU. Even if it isn't intentional (and I think suppression of at least some discourse at BYU is intentional), the unintentional forms cause some problems too. Anytime you take a relatively homogenous group of students and put them in classes taught by a relatively homogenous group of professors, you are likely to get opinions from a shallower pool of thought. This isn't to say people at BYU aren't smart. They are. Very smart. Probably smarter than the average university. As a result, they can have a decent dialogue without more of a mixed culture, but it could be better. Much better. I don't know what the solution is to the issue, given that BYU will always attract a certain type of person and not others, but it is an odd dynamic for a university.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

When I left BYU I told myself that the only way I would come back is as president. And not a normal BYU president. One with free reign.

Of course that is not going to happen, so I won't ever be returning.

My love for BYU is very complex.

Leaving BYU with such "complex" love for it is a sign of Waters' intelligence and character.

I understand from informed sources that there are two competing schools of thought as to what kind of a "uiversity" BYU should be--one represented by the Oaks/Lee legacy and the other by the Holland/Bateman legacy. Which is presently ascendant? That Michael Young is Utah's and not BYU's president should be your first clue.

The thing about the University of Utah is that you can find anything there that you want to find. It's a big public university with faculty from elite institutions from all over which is common for any major university. They eschew their own graduates in hiring facutly which is also common--they like to hire from above them in the pecking order. The thing to remember about a place like that is that getting a tenure track job at a school at that level is very tough to do. The market is exceediingly competitive just based on supply and demand. The odds of being hired are long even if you have a PhD at Harvard unless you are in a truly special class, and then tenure is an arduous climb. So there aren't any professors that are outright stupid or inept; they're all accomplished people or they wouldn't be there. I can't recall any classes I took where the professors were bad, and there were many that were really rewarding. There are some very bright students there as well for many of the same reasons that bright students wind up at BYU. But the worst thing about it is that it pretty much accepts all applicants. It wouldn't be my first choice for my kids but they could do a lot worse. The university of Utah was a highly rewarding experience in my life and it is an important university, in many ways it's truly the leading university an isolated four state region.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Did you know that the best baseball player for Army that past few years have been some kid from SLC named Scoggins, or something like that.

I think he was a shortstop.

Here is the link
<http://www.goarmysports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=48132&SPID=4603&DB_OEM_ID=1 1100&ATCLID=536476&Q_SEASON=2006>

Ever heard of the kid?

Yes, I've heard of this kid. A solid, hard-nosed ball player. I remember seeing him a few times while in high school and was impressed with what he could do. It's good to see a kid like this get to play at Army, where he's playing because he loves the game.

Thanks for that link. I enjoy following kids from this part of the country when they head out of state.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I understand from informed sources that there are two competing schools of thought as to what kind of a "uiversity" BYU should be--one represented by the Oaks/Lee legacy and the other by the Holland/Bateman legacy. Which is presently ascendant? That Michael Young is Utah's and not BYU's president should be your first clue.

It's my understanding that Holland and Bateman have two very different legacies. This can be seen in the Evenson letter posted at the beginning of this thread.

[Archaea]

And Samuelson will leave no legacy at all. What a travesty.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

You are obviously pretty sensitive about this. I don't know that I have seen you get so riled up in a discussion before.

Riled up? I am perfectly calm. See the smiley faces?

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

A world class museum would have been relatively inexpensive, would have made lots of money for the university if done correctly, and would have brought additional praise to the university.

World class museums are not cheap. Not by a long shot. And they rarely make money.

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I don't know why people argue that academic freedom isn't an issue at BYU.

If anyone made that argument then I must have missed it. I certainly did not. It's simply a debate on the scale of the problem. I am just trying to maintain a little balance to the debate. The CB crowd tends to deny any academic freedom issues exist and the CG crowd tends to exaggerate the problem. IMO, anyway.

Peace, brother.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Ok Honest example...

Rodin Exhibit at the Y.... I have seen "the kiss" in Paris and to be honest I was surprised it caused such an uproar. When I went to Utah I was encouraged to see every kind of Art I could.

Going to college IMO isnt just about attending classes and hearing what teachers say. Its the whole experience of learning, living away from home for the first time, being exposed to many new ideas etc...

IMO byu limits the ability of young adults to experience these things. The honor code among others is one way it does that. I think it represents a grand mistrust of our young adults. Parents who still want to control their kid (I know I am generalizing) can send them to byu and they have curfews and dress codes etc.. IMO it doesnt foster good in most of the students (just pisses them off) and if they do commit a sin they actually have an big incentive not to repent through the proper channels. I find that last statement the exact opposite of how Christ himself would want it.

As Mr. Solon has said...they are a private university so they have a right to do what they want. I for one would never go there and would never want any of my kids to attend there.

No, that's not an example. You said you want your kids to attend a university where they seek the truth and can call BS when they see it. I asked for an example of where you were able to seek the truth in your education where it couldn't have happened at BYU. Your example was BYU's decision not to show the Rodin exhibit. I asked you what you learned at your university. Did the U host the Rodin exhibit and did you attend and through attending were you able to seek a greater truth? I'm sure Rodin is taught and discussed and analyzed at BYU in a very similar way is done at other universities.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by YOhio

It's my understanding that Holland and Bateman have two very different legacies. This can be seen in the Evenson letter posted at the beginning of this thread.

Maybe from the inside it's perceived that way. From the outside, Bateman and Holland represent one thing and Oaks/Lee are in a completely different class. One problem I suppose is that Oaks/Lee caliber scholars and administrators don't grow on trees in LDS culture, but, then again, there was Michael Young and he wound up at Utah, not BYU.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Maybe from the inside it's perceived that way. From the outside, Bateman and Holland represent one thing and Oaks/Lee are in a completely different class. One problem I suppose is that Oaks/Lee caliber scholars and administrators don't grow on trees in LDS culture, but, then again, there was Michael Young and he wound up at Utah, not BYU.

Well, Young was educated at BYU, no?

Both schools do what they do well. Why is there even an argument here?