Church Discipline

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Tex

The church receives revelation every single day from the top on down. Not all of them are canonized with chapter and verse, Sidney.

One would think a revelation that could possibly influence your salvation (temple recommend) could be written down. Oh wait it was.... except it says in scripture that it NOT a commandment.

So were the prophets lying when they said we judged by what was written down or should they have you also will be judged by the unwritten rules?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

One would think a revelation that could possibly influence your salvation (temple recommend) could be written down. Oh wait it was.... except it says in scripture that it NOT a commandment.

So were the prophets lying when they said we judged by what was written down or should they have you also will be judged by the unwritten rules?

So you think you have your "out" for when you're at the Judgment Bar? Let me know how that goes.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Tex, I receive revelations from time to time. Should I start writing chapter and verse?

Whatever you do, please write less.

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

One would think a revelation that could possibly influence your salvation (temple recommend) could be written down. Oh wait it was.... except it says in scripture that it NOT a commandment.

So were the prophets lying when they said we judged by what was written down or should they have you also will be judged by the unwritten rules?

Yes, MRD. They were lying. The bastards.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Did you miss the memo where the entire body of the church in the 1800s agreed to make the Word of Wisdom binding; thereby making it a commandment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom

It's much more complex than that. You would enjoy reading this special issue:

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/doc...&CISOSHOW=6510

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So you think you have your "out" for when you're at the Judgment Bar? Let me know how that goes.

Me and the big guy will discuss things over a glass of wine (like the scriptures say). I doubt he is a hypocrite.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Tex

Yes, MRD. They were lying. The bastards.

I knew it!

[ERCougar]

I'm glad we're now fighting about whether or not we'll be drinking wine at the judgment bar...

ANYWAY...regardless of what the scriptures say, my heart (and brain) agree with Solon:

Originally Posted by Solon

I personally don't believe in the bishop-confession routine. It's not exactly scriptural. I know we have scriptures about confession - but those specifically state that it's okay to confess privately to the person you've offended (D&C 42). Not behind closed doors with a third party - a male bishop (probably very uncomfortable for females if the sin is sexual in nature).

I'd just tell her to come back to church and work out her repentance in her own way. If she feels that she needs to talk with an ecclesiastic leader to get it off her chest and ease her conscience, then she should do it. Otherwise, I don't consider it a necessary step.

I know, I know. Everyone is going to disagree. Fine. But I stick to my guns. As laid out in scripture (specifically, D&C 42), confessions are supposed to be either carried out between offender and offended, or in public if the offender offended a lot of people. For instance, Sylvester Smith - the oft-maligned malcontent of Zion's Camp - published his apology to Joseph Smith in a public forum - in the Messenger and Advocate (HC 2.160).

Now, if you want to argue that confessing to the bishop is the same as confessing "to God" (D&C 42.92), then you have a case. I personally don't see it as such.

To me, the introduction of the bishop into the confession process is a later development. While it's probably not a bad idea, I don't see it as necessary, since repentance is between a sinner, god, and the offended.

I think the confession and discipline process is a little bizarre. In my own personal experience, it felt strange involving a bishop in what seemed a very personal matter. Despite his best intentions and sincere interest in me, I can't really point to any way in which he helped me, and I can think of examples of other people getting very bad advice from bishops. Additionally, I think it shifts teenagers focus away from the real eternal consequences of their actions to the immediate disciplinary actions. And it discourages people like my sister from reapproaching the ward.

I can understand its role in a limited number of cases in which the church's reputation or the well-being of other members or units is threatened. I'm not sure I would put a case of adultery in that list.

[RC Vikings]

If someone goes before the bishop and stops or stops on their own aren't they in the same place?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by RC Vikings

If someone goes before the bishop and stops or stops on their own aren't they in the same place?

we are not talking about "stopping", we are talking about repenting.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

A few examples to make my point...
My sister has had a bad few years and wants to turn her life around. She doesn't believe everything about the church and has had some bad experiences with a few leaders (legitimately bad...not just taking offense at stupid things), but she sees the good in the church and wants to start living the gospel. But she's afraid she'll be excommunicated. I tell her that it probably wouldn't happen (although I don't really know), but the fear, combined with other bad experiences, keeps her back and she's sort of living the Gospel "independently".

Why do we have something in place that discourages people from coming back into the fold? Having had my own experiences in the repentance process, I never really understood the Bishop's role either. It almost seemed like he was trying to insert himself into something that was between me and God. That's nothing against him--I thought his intentions were good, I could sense his sincere concern for me, he was very nonjudgmental, and I'm sure he did a better job than I would have done. I just remember during my meetings with him just feeling really weird about the whole thing.

As a teenager, whenever I'd think about morality, it always boiled down to "what do I have to tell the bishop?", not "what is ok with God?" Then if things would go too far, I'd think, "well, I have to talk to the bishop anyway, might as well have some fun". Admittedly, a really screwed up way of looking at things, but had there not been so much emphasis on confession, I may have looked at things a little differently.

So what's the purpose of confession and church discipline? Any thoughts?

///
I am coming in late to this discusssion and I apologize if some have already shared but...here is my perspective having served as a bishop for a little over six years...I had little experience (served as branch president when I was a missionary) when the calling was extended and I accepted....I was only 32 and knew nothing about church discipline, counseling others, and what to do after confessions...I still remember the first Sunday, ward members were lining up to speak with me to seek counsel and some to unload heavy burdens they had been carrying around for years. The outgoing Bishop handed me the keys to the building, shook my hand and smiled at me as he walked out with his family...it was trial by fire. However, the experiences I shared with ward members made me a better person and for many ward members the shared experiences changed their lives.

My understanding of purpose of Church discipline is that it is three fold: 1) save the soul of the transgressor, 2) protect the innocent, 3) safeguard the purity, integrity, and good name of the Church.

In D&C 58 it states:

14 Yea, for this cause I have sent you hither, and have selected my servant Edward Partridge, and have appointed unto him his mission in this land.
15 But if he repent not of his sins, which are aunbelief and blindness of heart, let him take heed lest he fall.
16 Behold his mission is given unto him, and it shall not be given again.
17 And whoso standeth in this mission is appointed to be a judge in Israel, like as it was in ancient days, to divide the lands of the heritage of God unto his children;
18 And to judge his people by the testimony of the just, and by the assistance of his counselors, according to the laws of the kingdom which are given by the prophets of God.
19 For verily I say unto you, my law shall be kept on this land.

From the above I understand that the bishop is responsible for both the temporal and spiritual needs of his ward. For most of us, it will be a rare ocassion when we will need to seek the bishop's help. But for many, the bishop is a source of counsel when facing burdens.

I don't ever recall deciding that it was in the best interest of the individual who truly repented to be ex-communicated. Most of the decisions made by the formal disciplinary councils that I participated in were of the "no action", "probation (with restrictions), and disfellowshipped type. The tone of the council was set by the attitude of the individual, truly humbled/repentant vs. a boastful attitude about the transgression. Another key factor was who the individual was, ie, priesthood holder, previous positions of responsibility, returned missionary, etc.. vs. a teenager attempting to find his way in life or a young adult making some bad choices.

The majority of the councils I participated in were informal, just the ward member and I. Most of these type were initiated by the ward member who would come to confess a transgression. Some I had to initiate because that individual participated in a transgression with one who previously came in to confesss or I leard about a transgression in some other way. I always emphasized that it was not me that would forgive the transgression and pointed them to seek Heavenly Father's forgiveness. I was simply the individual that they needed to share the transgression with and then if they needed further counsel, they were welcome to come back any time to discuss. We set goals on taking steps to overcome the transgression and subsequent visits were for me to find out how they were doing, to answer questions, be a sounding board, and to be a support if they continued to struggle. It was a wonderful experience to see someone truly repent, change their lives, go on a mission, go to the temple, etc...

To ER Cougar, encourage your sister to go see her bishop, despite previous experiences with church leaders. Taking that step can truly be a turning point in her life. Not knowing the circumstances of the transgressions, I do not know if the Bishop will determine if a formal disciplinary council will be needed, but if one is held, so be it...it could be a spiritual experience for all involved, in particular for your sister. The three men that will participate will have to rely on inspiration and guidance of the Spirit of the Lord and if they do, the right decision will be made.

I was released from my calling almost 10 years ago...it was a sad day when it happened...I knew that I would no longer be able to be of service in the capacity of the calling with people like ER Cougar's sister who are struggling in life and are looking for happiness..the happiness that can only come with our acceptance of Christ as our Savior.

That is my two cents and apologize for my rambling.

-Cougarobgon