02-27-2008, 08:20 PM | #21 |
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02-27-2008, 08:28 PM | #22 | |
Charon
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Quote:
I would also disagree on your description of him "steadying the ark" in a "public" fashion. We have no evidence whatsoever that he has done anything but rant on an anonymous message board.
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02-27-2008, 08:30 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Cheering for Dook is grounds for excommunication.
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Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'. |
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02-27-2008, 08:33 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
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02-27-2008, 08:36 PM | #25 |
Formerly known as MudPhudCoug
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Dan,
I think you overstated the Church's perfection. The Church organization is not even close to perfect. The Church has too much involvement in people's personal lives, IMO. But I agree that Adam shouldn't be so upset about it. It's not easy to have a very high functioning, centralized world religion without a little tyranny now and then. I think Adam would be happier if he lowered his expectations. Sincerely, SoonerCoug Last edited by SoonerCoug; 02-27-2008 at 08:40 PM. |
02-27-2008, 08:42 PM | #26 | |
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Quote:
The question du jour is how to reconcile the discovery of new historical facts with personal faith. Consider the dilemma of lifelong members who now harbor doubts about the historicity, yet have deep cultural and family ties to the Church. Is it implicit in your advice to Adam that it is better to stay even if you doubt, if for nothing more than to maintain family and social stability? I would postulate there are many "straddlers" who outwardly stay in the Church rather than risk social isolation. Last edited by Requiem; 02-27-2008 at 08:55 PM. |
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02-27-2008, 08:44 PM | #27 |
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How reassuring.
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02-27-2008, 08:45 PM | #28 |
Demiurge
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Dan,
If you have read the McKay biography, would you have said a similar thing to Sterling McMurrin, as you have said to Adam? To Juanita Brooks? Hugh B. Brown (who circumvented McKay at times)? It's like you are saying that the Adam of 2008 not only doesn't help the church, he harms the church (I'm talking about his views and posts, not his personal service in his ward). I also have an issue with the "perfect organization." Convert baptisms DOWN in the southwestern United States. Lowest percentage of males any US religion outside of two (JW and histor. black protestant). I think you are going to see a lot of changes to this "perfect" organization, with hopes that it will become "more perfect", because there are many things that are not "most perfect" right now. Adam has a vision for the church where the church embraces the Good. Where it comes to represent the things that Christ taught in the beattitude and how Christ lived his life. But as I've told the board before: this is not a church with a single suggestion-box. No one is interested in your opinion. Period. This is a top-down organization, and Jesus is at the top, and for the ideas to come from the bottom is like Joe Blow giving advice to Jesus. Nothing could be more insulting. Normally this does not work well for organizations. If spirituality has an entrepreneuial aspect, it won't thrive in this kind of environment. So what do we get? Constant talks and speeches about our failings. You aren't doing member missionary work. You aren't doing geneology work. Your home teaching stinks. You aren't going to the temple. The message is "you must be perfect, and guess what, you are a failure." It takes a spirtually wise person to brush this off and be happy and continue forward. I reject your ideas of "perfection" and actually believe that I have scriptural reason to do so. Beware he who says all is well in Zion. Maybe your words are great wisdom for every single person in the world. Maybe not. Maybe each person has different role, a different mission, a different path. I don't have the guts to tell you that you are on the wrong path, and I certainly am not going to tell Adam he is on the wrong path. There but for the grace of God go I. War Mormons. |
02-27-2008, 08:51 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
I don't know how Adam will take / did take this. I don't claim to speak for him. That's his business and yours. I believe you meant well. But since you posted it here, and it sounded pretty condescending to me, I thought I'd indicate as much.
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02-27-2008, 08:52 PM | #30 |
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The quibbles
Fair points.
I am not implying Adam has only recently started down the road of troubling church history. I mentioned in a prior post that this cross-roads period can cover a number of years before something has to give one way or another. But I believe sooner or later something will give for Adam or anyone in a position of such apparent frustration. I have seen Adam post for probably over a five year period, stretching back to the early 2000s on cougarboard. It has not been until the last two or three years that I noticed quite a bit of hostility or resentment that appears to coming to a critical mass at some point. My cause of concern is that I have experienced this myself and I have seen others go through this as well, with different individuals ultimately reaching different long term results. Adam my well have a larger historical library than me now and may be more 'well read' with LDS history than I am. If people are reading 4-6 books a month on LDS history and theology for one or two decades they are going to invariably read many of the same things. What it comes down to is the reaction a person has to the information they drink in. That brings the discussion back to the cross-roads. Different people choose to go in different directions. All I am doing is trying to suggest if there is a desire to remain in the church, a sense of peace and satisfaction, eventually, will need to be obtained. It cannot be obtained while continually arguing subjectively about words and actions of local and general leaders in the church. I would not say that Adam has up to this point tried to steady the ark, but he is not a completely annonymous figure on the board. And as time goes on, a constant drum beat can turn into something similar to steadying the ark, especially if in the future, the actions turn into things like writing letters to the editor of public papers, speaking to groups publically. Of course, the higher one's standing in the church (bishop, high councilman, etc.) the more closely that person will be scrutinized for such 'ark steadying.' I hope no one feels I have suggested Adam is not providing valuable service to the church as I have noticed in the past he has appeared more willing to do so and take certain steps than others, at least by his tenacity of discussion on certain topics. I have been focusing primarily on spirituality going forward, and how certain attitudes can be damaging to that.
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