Double Documents

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Academic research into concepts of the ancient world are not to produce "testimony", but for academics it is of interest to them.

Originally Posted by Spaz

I agree with this...but still, to each his own.

I didn't mean to criticize people who are interested, or who like to make connections. It is interesting - and (I'll admit) the BoM parallels are the first thing I thought about when I heard about double documents. But I think it's a bad idea for the Lee liberry to display it as somehow related to and possibly supporting historically the BoM.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Solon

It's like finding a credit card slip from 1955 on a Native American reservation and concluding that the Indians might have used credit cards before the white man arrived.

Sure, maybe. . .

That's an awfully extreme and rediculous analogy that offers nothing more than mockery.

Did Roman society utilize metal plates for record keeping purposes? Are there other ancient cultures that predate Roman civilization that used metal plates for record keeping -say in asia, india etc.? Was the Roman civilization a culmination of ancient modern civilized progress and growth?

[Tex]

I thought I remember seeing a tiny sheet of metal with inscriptions on it dating back to ca. 600-700 BC in the Israeli Museum in Jerusalem? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Solon

I didn't mean to criticize people who are interested, or who like to make connections. It is interesting - and (I'll admit) the BoM parallels are the first thing I thought about when I heard about double documents. But I think it's a bad idea for the Lee liberry to display it as somehow related to and possibly supporting historically the BoM.

Interesting, to be sure....and, like I said, to each his own.


It's not my bag of tea, but I can understand those who enjoy it. Same time, I'm saddened when some sort of "physical evidence" leads them away from their once-firm conviction brought about by spiritual witness....

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Solon

I didn't mean to criticize people who are interested, or who like to make connections. It is interesting - and (I'll admit) the BoM parallels are the first thing I thought about when I heard about double documents. But I think it's a bad idea for the Lee liberry to display it as somehow related to and possibly supporting historically the BoM.

And I better understand your argument. To restate it, because the linkage is not according to academic standards, namely, we don't have proof of it for seventh century Hebrews, it shouldn't be seen as evidence that Hebrews such as Lehi is supposed to be, have used double documents or sealed books. And because the Lee Library is an academic library it should be managed according to academic standards.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

And I better understand your argument. To restate it, because the linkage is not according to academic standards, namely, we don't have proof of it for seventh century Hebrews, it shouldn't be seen as evidence that Hebrews such as Lehi is supposed to be, have used double documents or sealed books. And because the Lee Library is an academic library it should be managed according to academic standards.

Thanks for saying it better than I did.

Wanna write a dissertation?

I can pay you $1.38.

Cash.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by tooblue

That's an awfully extreme and rediculous analogy that offers nothing more than mockery.

Did Roman society utilize metal plates for record keeping purposes? Are there other ancient cultures that predate Roman civilization that used metal plates for record keeping -say in asia, india etc.? Was the Roman civilization a culmination of ancient modern civilized progress and growth?

I actually don't think it's all that innovative to write on metal. Ancient Greek Orphics (500 years before Trajan) used to write mystic/magic/religious scripts on tiny gold sheets and place them in with the deceased, so that they would know the correct words and incantations to say as they made their way through the treacherous dangers of the afterlife to a blessed paradise.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Cities...olosAM035.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=N2U...62No#PPA101,M1
(Scroll down to page 101.)

I think you make a good point about Asia and India . . . in my opinion, further research is going to demonstrate Asia's influence on the pre-Columbian history of the Americas. Menzies' book (1421: The Year China Discovered America) is a little sensationalist but hey, it had to sell copies. I think archaeology will continue to strengthen cultural connections between eastern South America and Asia. That's where people should be looking for BoM parallels, if they're so inclined - not in the Roman Empire.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Solon

I actually don't think it's all that innovative to write on metal. Ancient Greek Orphics (500 years before Trajan) used to write mystic/magic/religious scripts on tiny gold sheets and place them in with the deceased, so that they would know the correct words and incantations to say as they made their way through the treacherous dangers of the afterlife to a blessed paradise.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Cities...olosAM035.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=N2U...62No#PPA101,M1
(Scroll down to page 101.)

I think you make a good point about Asia and India . . . in my opinion, further research is going to demonstrate Asia's influence on the pre-Columbian history of the Americas. Menzies' book (1421: The Year China Discovered America) is a little sensationalist but hey, it had to sell copies. I think archaeology will continue to strengthen cultural connections between eastern South America and Asia. That's where people should be looking for BoM parallels, if they're so inclined - not in the Roman Empire.

Menzie's book was good though. How he explained variances in mapping and various archaeological discoveries was also interesting. His book was to set out an argument and for lay readership, it wasn't meant for the academic audiences.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

I actually don't think it's all that innovative to write on metal. Ancient Greek Orphics (500 years before Trajan) used to write mystic/magic/religious scripts on tiny gold sheets and place them in with the deceased, so that they would know the correct words and incantations to say as they made their way through the treacherous dangers of the afterlife to a blessed paradise.

This is most likely what I saw in the Israeli Museum. Explain to me why an expanded version of this idea couldn't be applied to Nephi.

[SeattleUte]

Simply put, Solon's point is that this is an example of the typicle apologist's modus operandi of taking something that proves nothing and trying to extrapolate "proof" from nothing. To take tooblue's rejoinder as a typical non-response, no, Rome did not rise in a vacuum; its traditions were primarily adapted from Greek culture, but certainly eastern cultures were influential. So what? In the plain light of day Roman practices of making copies of documents proves nothing about the Book of Mormon being a genuine acient document, as purported (as an aside, making duplictes of important documents seems to me just good common sensical practice, but look how long it took for humans to think of the wheel).

But apologists are desparate, as they really have literally nothing to work with in terms of proving their ultimate points, and they are fundamentally dishonest. I've never met an apologist to whom I'd loan the price of a cup of coffee. They're all crooks and liars and this is a prime example.