John Dehlin, drama queen?

[MikeWaters]

1. Someone that likes a lot of attention?

2. Someone into self-promotion?

3. Exaggerates and sensationalizes in order to gain more attention and self-promote?

I just read through his Mormonstories conference powerpoint. Apparently his podcast/organization has reached enough of a critical mass that it can support such an enterprise.

Dehlin is proposing creating local communities of what he called "uncorrelated" Mormons. He defines "uncorrelated" as "disbelief and disengagement." He suggests this could be a new collective identity such as "Reform Judaism." I think he means Jews that don't really believe. Cultural Jews. Jew-ish, but not Jewish. Mormon-ish instead of Mormon.

One might think that someone like me would be a prime candidate to affiliate with such a movement. Some may consider me a "liberal Mormon" if that is the right phrase. In fact, this forum Cougarguard.com was started because cougarboard.com would not allow free and open discussion of Mormon religious topics.

But Dehlin leaves me cold. He always has. Way before he proposed this alternative Mormon organization. Way before he became inactive. Back when he was, in his own words, trying to keep Mormons in the fold. I don't know that I can put my finger on the reason. However his being absorbs the vibrations of the universe, my being does not.

I'm not claiming any moral or spiritual superiority. Hell, it might be that I just don't care as much. I don't spend my days wringing my hands about all of this.

Having gone through the powerpoint, let me characterize a few of my complaints. One, Dehlin simplifies and caricaturizes Mormons in ways that I don't think are entirely accurate. It's not that some aspects of his stages don't hold water--it's just that he ignores the overwhelming richness, complexity, and diversity of beliefs in the Mormon church. With more experience in life, and having had more conversations, I have come to realize that there are so many different ways that people approach this religion. This "true believer" is a bit of a straw man and doesn't reflect what is actually going on in my opinion. I think one can make a legitimate argument that there aren't enough venues or opportunities to really explore these rich personal beliefs in the way our meetings are set up....but I would also say that's not necessarily the purpose of these meetings. Take some initiative and have some conversations with people.

One caveat to this. I was never a true believer type. Not from childhood even. So I don't have the personal experience of feeling like my "bubble" was popped. I have always considered and weighed the contradictions. No doubt there were more contradictions to consider as I got older.

Another thing I don't relate to is "extensive exposure to non-Mormons" leading to disaffection. I grew up in the minority, and most of my closest friends were not LDS.

Ok, my next complaint. Just how hard is it become disaffected/inactive? I acknowledge that it can be very trying on many levels to some people. But on the other hand, maybe as many as 50% of Mormons fit this category! It seems like there are plenty of people who feel perfectly fine just walking away! I've worked with young men. Plenty of them fall off the map the first moment they can. I have two brothers--one of them completely disaffected, and the other has either inactive or part-active his entire adult life. Just how hard is it?

Dehlin says "If you haven’t already become uncorrelated, you likely will, and the majority of your children or loved ones children most likely will." I suppose this statement is directed toward the attendees of his conference. He knows his audience, I don't. And given his audience, that may very well be correct. But I have to take some umbrage if he is extending that statement behind the circle of his acolytes.

Some of us have looked at this Mormon church, both in past and present form, and found a rich HUMAN tapestry. All things human are full of humanity, with both good and evil, truth and error. If Joseph Smith was very human, like myself, then I can relate to Joseph in a way that I cannot relate to someone else.

What you don't hear Dehlin talk about is the sublime, the charismatic, the gifts of the Spirit, the literal POWER AND PRESENCE OF GOD resting upon you through the mantle of His priesthood. Either you have faith in this or you don't. Dehlin might point to his statement that some people "never [receive] a spiritual witness." I agree with that. My father had a cousin that he befriended as an adult. He and his wife had been inactive for many years. I asked my father why he was inactive, and he told me that his cousin reported never feeling like he had received a spiritual witness despite his attempts. Just recently I ran into father's cousin in my stake, now an active and solid member of the church. I did not have the opportunity to discuss this with him, but I wonder if he did in fact, these many years later, have an experience that qualified in his heart/mind.

My mind often turns to the phrase "the fellowship of the Saints." An old friend used to use this phrase often. The magnetism that some of us feel in the presence of our fellow church members. That there is real power in the actual association. I believe that. I've felt that. All kinds of Saints--big, small, old, young, black, white, yellow, red, liberal, conservative, smart, dumb, and everything else you can think of. The breadth of humanity united to God, united to each other, of a common mind.

You can maintain your personal integrity in this church, no matter your stripes. This is a big tent. On very rare occasions, you may find yourself in awkward circumstances where it feels like paths may diverge. I think of the account of Juanita Brooks in the David O. McKay biography. She was told by an apostle that if she revealed that Lee had had his blessings reinstated, that they would be rescinded and she would be excommunicated. How incredibly hard that must have been for her. And what joy she felt when the mission president gave her the account of President McKay telling the apostle to let it alone. I believe the account was that she burst into tears on hearing this.

In each of our minds, we hold a construction of this thing we call the Mormon church. To some degree, we project our hopes, desires and fears on the church. And that is how we can come to a place where the church that is described by others does not feel like the church we know and attend.

I started by asking if John Dehlin is a drama queen. That is probably inappropriate language. Disparaging. Not giving him the benefit of the doubt. But what to make of it? A man that not long ago said he was trying to keep people in the church, and now arguing that these same people will all become disaffected, leave the church, and ought to start a separate organization?

How did it come to this? I don't know.

I wish him well. I wish all of you well. Most things rewarding do not come easy. I am reminded of the quote from the famous swordsman Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645): "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first." It surely is no coincidence that the word "faith" is often preceded by the word "trials." Everything I have ever learned came with a price. And I've paid enough that I'm still here in this church.

[Archaea]

Nice commentary.

So as to fail to detract from it, the only point I'd highlight is that people leave the Church all the time, and people come to join often as well. I don't understand Dehlin either. Yet I'd like there to be improvements within and it won't happen by forming splinter groups.

[DaKing]

I loved the thoughts in the original post. At first I was confused with the Drama Queen comment and didn't think I would agree with you.

To me once I started struggling with Joseph Smith, Church History, the Temple, and my being democrat in a psychotic republican stake (Yes it was my stake that boycotted Harry Reid last year) John Dehlin was like an oasis in the middle of a hot desert. One I found at just the right time and although didn't he didn't heal my wounds, he did provide a bandaid that stopped my spiritual bleeding from a gush to a slower trickle.

I understand what he is trying to do and if he successfully creates an offshoot from the LDS Church, I say more power to him. I might even attend some meetings but the thought of it doesn't excite me. I agree with you that I have found it easier to walk away from Church activity while allowing my family to stay in.

I have come to realize that I have a testimony of the people in the church (mainly my friends I grew up with and leaders I respected in my youth). I don't have any kind of testimony of the church itself. I have come to the belief that this church is just another man made organization like every other church on earth. With this understanding I still feel that the lessons my kids learn and the friends they make through the church is worth letting them experience the whole enchilada like I did as a youth.

Maybe they will develop the same feelings I have or maybe they will stay strong in the church. It will be their choice. But I hope there are people like John Dehlin around if they have the same questions I did.

[MikeWaters]

Everyone needs mentors in life. One can't get anywhere without mentors. The same holds for the church and one's spiritual life. I can point to certain people who helped me along the way. Who played key roles in my reaching this point and being an active, believing member. My father, who has always been very sincere and honest and never one to "lie for the Lord." Another was a brilliant, eccentric man in my ward whose religious view fascinated me when he was a Sunday School teacher (shows you how important these "throw-away" callings are). One might consider him the kind of active Mormon who might have posted on CG, but way before the internet existed. Another was a man, whom I had never met, who out of the blue started writing me on my mission. He was one of my father's friends from his teenage/college days. My mission president, who responded to me when I said "I can only do things this way and feel like I am maintaining my integrity", "then you do it that way." Someone else as mission president might have completely altered my trajectory. Some of the Bishops I have had.

I'll give a more recent example from the era when I have been posting on these message boards. Sacrament meeting, and it happened that the Stake President was sitting on the back row. It was not normal for him to attend our ward. At the end, I think the Bishop asked if he wanted to share any words. He got up and started talking about how this church is a "big tent" and there are those of you who feel like you might not belong or fit, but you do. In that particular moment, with the things going on in my life, it felt like he could have been talking to me personally. This same stake president sent out an email/memo that it was not a commandment or an official church position for members to support the federal marriage amendment. These were very small things, but they mattered to me in the moment.

I walk in faith. I don't really know much of anything. I guess I'm kind of like a spiritual empiricist--my views evolve based on my experiences. I certainly have my doubts and my complaints, but I have found in those foxhole moments in life, that I fall on the side of faith. I've had enough experiences that I can't walk away and say "that was a bunch of nothing."

In the vision of the Tree of Life, the invitation is to taste the fruit. I can taste the fruit for myself. I can't taste it for anyone else. Neither can anyone else taste it for me. Descriptions of the taste are far removed from the personal experience of tasting. Words fail us. But the words can ring within us. Like charges of energy along a string, our molecules sing with truth. At least I think so. Each person has their own life and own experience, and the most any member of any faith can say is "taste the fruit."

...

John Dehlin might be the first to start his own religion based on the opinion that the fruit is "meh" (I have to admit that I am chuckling at my own joke here). Maybe the Dehlin's tone comes across to me in a way that was not intended, but there is a real chick little the-sky-is-falling-in-Mormondom kind of vibe that I don't really agree with. But if I constantly surrounded myself with Mormons in existential crises, and was constantly praised as a leading light among them, then my view of what is reality in Mormondom might be different.

I have been a dim light among idiots, so that has helped temper my expectations and keep my spirits high!

Anyway, one last point. I think one can embrace the humanity of the church, with all of its foibles and human errors, but still hold to the authority and power and gifts of the Spirit within the church. The David O. McKay biography really helped shape my views on this, that the distance from the "ordinary" member of the church and the apostles is not so great. As Uchtdorf recently said, most of us live below our means.

[MikeWaters]

I have been a dim light among idiots

Present company excluded of course.

[DaKing]

I like the sense of humor on this site.

Just want you to know my candle is burning bright but my wife has been known to blow it out now and then :-D

[SeattleUte]

Mike, you are witty and well spoken as ever. However, you remind me of Arkady Renko. Are you familiar with Martin Cruz Smith's brilliantly imagined police detective in Soviet and post-Soviet Russia (the novel Gorky Park, etc.)? Arkady is a fabulous detective, and with boundless integrity. He works tirelessly to catch criminals. And nobody understands what's wrong with his employer as well as he does. The greatest challenges he faces in his investigations are invariably the corruption of the Soviet and post-Soviet state.

But dammit (here is where you remind me of him) he loves Russia, for all its mendacity and all the suffering it causes, whatever iteration. He's had numerous chances to defect to the West, or start a new life there, even following some he loves deeply who chose this way out, but his love of homeland keeps him toiling away amid the low standard of living, the banged up metal desks, the corruption, the suffering--and he will not allow it all to compromise his principles. Actually, his many contradictions and stubbornness are what make him such an interesting, loveable character (my wife once confessed to me that she had literally fallen in love with him).

I understand your identity vis-à-vis the LDS Church is this kind of loyalty. But maybe Dehlin has a different constituency--those who (like our new comrade DaKing here) had come to rely and find inspiration from him. I have a feeling that DaKing's experience, which by the way mirrors Dehlin's own experience, is typical. Say all you want about inoculation or Mormon Stories, Dehlin is right—ultimately those who resort to this kind of succor wind up unbelievers. If you make the LDS Church about the story being true like we're taught history or science must be true, you will wind up outside the fold.

So, maybe Dehlin feels an obligation to those whom he moved as he worked publicly to sort out his own faith to keep the dialogue going. Maybe that’s more charitable than being a recluse. Maybe that’s his calling. Do you think he makes much money doing this (if so, maybe you and I should go into the business)? Maybe what you call being a drama queen is really trying to help people. (I confess though that I've never read a word of his work and don't intend to.)

By the way, apostates are fully aware of the richness of LDS human experience and humanity. That is precisely why it IS so hard to leave. You are obviously being too facile in deciding it's such an easy thing to leave. Apostates don’t miss the mythology; we miss the love, and being loved. Like Russia, the LDS Church is full of wonderful people however bad and callous of human suffering are many of its leaders, or how deluded by the leaders some of the people may be.

Here is a list I recently made of some of my favorite apostates. What do you think of it?

The historical Jesus

Paul of Tarsus

Dostoevky

Tolstoy

The Founding Fathers of the United States

Spinoza

David Hume

Adam Smith

Joseph Smith

Nietzche

Darwin

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Here is a list I recently made of some of my favorite apostates. What do you think of it?

The historical Jesus

Paul of Tarsus

Dostoevky

Tolstoy

The Founding Fathers of the United States

Spinoza

David Hume

Adam Smith

Joseph Smith

Nietzche

Darwin

I know you're being provocative by listing these individuals as apostates, but in reality, they are better classified as heretics or paradigm shifters. They felt moved to confront the social fabric, to tear it apart and to make it anew. That's not what a typical apostate does, but that is what heretic of the normal society is.

[MikeWaters]

Maybe that’s more charitable than being a recluse.

Hmm, are you calling me a recluse?

When I asked whether Dehlin is a drama queen, I would hope people realize that I am not attacking his integrity or sincerity. I'm merely questioning his perspective and his self-interest.

I also recognize that many people profess to be grateful to him for making their lives better.

The reason I even ventured over to Mormon Stories to see what was going on, was the report/rumor that Dehlin was afraid that he might be excommunicated from the church based on being summoned by one of his local church leaders.

I have to admit, that when I read his powerpoint, I was surprised at the dramatic and negative tone. But I don't know why I should be surprised. I don't pay attention to the man and know almost nothing about him.

If I heard tomorrow that he had been excommunicated, you wouldn't see an eyebrow raise from me.

Sure, for some people it is difficult to leave the church. Especially if they are married to a faithful member, or it makes things difficult among their family and friends. Disappointed parents and grandparents. Answering the look of "when I went to battle, I thought you would have been at my side, and we would have been brothers at arms, but you were gone."

Sometimes I really don't know how to answer what seem to be very basic questions. Am I spiritual? Am I religious? Am I faithful? Because almost always, these questions are a kind of comparison. To other members of the church. Or just other people. I had a person that I worked with in a church calling, and he was always making comments about other peoples' spirituality. Whether good or not so good. It makes me very uncomfortable to think that I can judge that kind of thing from outward appearances. And to some extent the inner life is unknowable. So maybe because this makes me uncomfortable, I am not very spiritual. Or maybe the other guy is an immature fool. LOL.

I'm not a cultural Mormon. I'm not a social Mormon. I'm not an aspiring, climbing Mormon. I'm not a spiritual Mormon. I'm not a non-spiritual Mormon.

I'm just Mormon. I got enough fuel in the furnace to keep me warm, so I'm truckin' on.

[marsupial]

I admit, John Dehlin resonates with me. I've appreciated the online community and perspectives I have found from Mormon Stories. I do not believe he is trying to start his own religion or is a drama queen.

I grew up believing that the church was true, the scriptures were literal, and if a prophet says it, then it was straight from God. I never knew about JS polygamy/polyandry or multiple accounts of the first vision. Blacks and the priesthood bothered me, but I pretty much went along with everything else, figuring I would eventually understand.

The first time I learned about Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry, I felt like I got punched in the face. It made me question whether or not he really was a prophet. And once I let myself question that, well, then I started questioning everything.

It's a difficult, confusing place to be in, to suddenly question everything you built your life around. John Dehlin and the Mormon Stories offers a community and support for Mormons who have had their foundation shaken. I think what he's doing is a good thing.