Would your opinion of homosexuals change....

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

In the garden God told Adam essetially one thing, do not judge. God already made the judgement that we were good, we were perfect, we were exactly how he wanted us, it is now our job to embrace that accept that, and move forward to further light and knowledge.

You're ready to make quantum leaps.

He did NOT say, "do not judge."

He saw that it was good, or so the scribes have handed down.

Being "good" is tantamount to being "perfect"? I would have to see the Hebrew words and compare them with a dictionary, but I wonder.

And why would you intellectually make the stretch that the vessel made through evolution which was sufficiently effective for reaching salvation be the same as perfect or complete?

Since Man strives to become complete, it necessarily follows that Man was not perfect. In fact, those passages counteract your thesis.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You're ready to make quantum leaps.

He did NOT say, "do not judge."

He told Adam and Eve to not partake of which tree?

After Adam and Eve partook they were able to 'see' and began making judgements based on what they thought was acceptable behavior.

Originally Posted by Archaea

And why would you intellectually make the stretch that the vessel made through evolution which was sufficiently effective for reaching salvation be the same as perfect or complete?

Since Man strives to become complete, it necessarily follows that Man was not perfect. In fact, those passages counteract your thesis.

Being perfect is a state of being, it's allowable in this probation:

Genesis 17:

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deut 18:

13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Moroni 10:

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Matt 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice something similar with these passages? All are abmonitions to 'be' a certain way, in other words, it is our duty to become perfect beings now.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by jay santos

You missed my point, dude. Like you missed it so bad, it almost took talent to miss it that bad.

Okay sorry. Clarification?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Genesis 2:

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So God created us in his own image and own likeness. What is the image and likeness of God? Perfection, power, love, peace, etc.

So is it a stretch that we are perfected beings already?

Moses 2:

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

God created us in his own image and in the image of his Only Begotten, both beings are perfect.

In the garden God told Adam essetially one thing, do not judge. God already made the judgement that we were good, we were perfect, we were exactly how he wanted us, it is now our job to embrace that accept that, and move forward to further light and knowledge.

I guess I'm making the mistake that we have a common base of doctrine we're both buidling on. Maybe we don't.

Do you believe in sin the same way most Mormons do? I don't mean exactly the same, but do you believe there is a such thing as sin which consists of doing something that is against God's will? If yes, do you agree there are MANY sins which different people have a genetic predisposition to commit? If yes, then how does that fit in with the men are perfected beings thing?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Okay sorry. Clarification?

Read my other posts. I disagree with you that some have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

He told Adam and Eve to not partake of which tree?

After Adam and Eve partook they were able to 'see' and began making judgements based on what they thought was acceptable behavior.



Being perfect is a state of being, it's allowable in this probation:

Genesis 17:

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deut 18:

13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Moroni 10:

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Matt 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice something similar with these passages? All are abmonitions to 'be' a certain way, in other words, it is our duty to become perfect beings now.

Fuz, you are way off base on these textual analyses. Adam and Eve became self-aware, but that was NOT a commandment to avoid making decisions or judgments. How you could come to that textual analysis.

You are aware of Elder Nelson's talk on the Greek meaning of the word for perfect in the Septuagint or in the New Testament greek?

Teleos, or complete. Be complete in terms of ordinances, not without blemish or imperfection.

I do not have the Hebrew bible to check up on the Old Testament. You are simply mistaken as to the ancient textual meaning of these phrases.

They do NOT mean that the body and soul were without blemish.

You are stretching it again.

[SeattleUte]

This thread is not a good sign. It means that Fusnik is running out of ideas for provocative subjects. Is there a more tired subject on these BYU boards? The issue has been framed exactly this way countless times. Yes, the crux is whether or not this trait is immutable. Certainly among enlightened people this ought to be the issue. If someone says the answer to the question makes no difference to him, well, that's all I need to hear. It's kind of like what you knew intuitively went on in Mel Gibson's head before he got drunk and said it for us explicitly on tape.

Except for the initial couple of terse responses to Fusnik's initial post, I have not brought myself to read this thread. I for one don't care again to see the same intolerant diatribes from the same predictable cast of bitter homophobes. Their problem is not gays. They are projecting something else. Those of us who are repelled by this kind of hatred need to just try to ignore it, and simply live content in the knowledge that we are unburdened by such dark thoughts, and that among intellectuals this issue has become the litmus test that separates the enlightened from the backward. Gays provide us the service of inducing people who are secretly intolerant, because they must hide their hatred in these times, to drop the mask, to show their true character, i.e., the stripes they would have worn fifty years ago when the issue was not sexual preference but race.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Read my other posts. I disagree with you that some have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay.

Find me one single quote where I said that some have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay?

I've not said that one single time. Ironically after you're mocking me not understanding what you wrote........

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This thread is not a good sign. It means that Fusnik is running out of ideas for provocative subjects. Is there a more tired subject on these BYU boards? The issue has been framed exactly this way countless times. Yes, the crux is whether or not this trait is immutable. Certainly among enlightened people this ought to be the issue. If someone says the answer to the question makes no difference to him, well, that's all I need to hear. It's kind of like what you knew intuitively went on in Mel Gibson's head before he got drunk and said it for us explicitly on tape.

Except for the initial couple of terse responses to Fusnik's initial post, I have not brought myself to read this thread. I for one don't care again to see the same intolerant diatribes from the same predictable cast of bitter homophobes. Their problem is not gays. They are projecting something else. Those of us who are repelled by this kind of hatred need to just try to ignore it, and simply live content in the knowledge that we are unburdened by such dark thoughts, and that among intellectuals this issue has become the litmus test that separates the enlightened from the backward. Gays provide us the service of inducing people who are secretly intolerant, because they must hide their hatred in these times, to drop the mask, to show their true character, i.e., the stripes they would have worn fifty years ago when the issue was not sexual preference but race.

This thread is tiresome, but what new have you added.

Your basic argument is "immutability should end debate." You then toss out ad hominens, "unenlightens" and "homophobe". Thanks for enricheing the debate.

With all your vast resources, one would think you could do better than tossing out ad hominems.

Give us something novel or hijack the thread, you're well-read, give us something more what an ordinary Coug on CB can do.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Jay Santos said: Take it further, it's not just about sex, why would God create man with any genetic disposition to commit any kind of sin?

My response: Exactly.


For me it comes to my feelings and beliefs based in spiritual roots. I personally do not believe that Heavenly Father in the creation of our physical bodies, consciously chose to create someone that goes against the plan of procreation and salvation. Since I believe the Plan of Salvation is perfect, I do not believe that he would in essence create a built in defect that directly correlates with sin thus rendering his plan irrelevant.

However, he did. See Eth 12:27:
God says: "_I_ give unto men weakness that they may be humble."

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Some will come back and say "what about those born into alcoholism and drug addiction?" That's an entirely different dynamic where the physical choice of those kids brought into the worlds were placed squarely on the heads of their fathers and mothers and were not placed there in a physical root by Heavenly Father.

Where as a child is born into a physical addiction forced upon him, they've essentially in some ways had choice viciously ripped away from them.

Thus I believe that people are not "Born Gay".

But god allowed them to be born into that family, for whatever reason. We all have a set of things to deal with and God created a perfect situation where we could come and experience life.
I have no idea why different things happen to different people, but I know that God does. And it's sometimes difficult to accept that, but I try.
For all we know some gays were bullies in heaven and so God crafted an experience for them here on earth where they could be victims of intolerance in order to learn from the experience.

God ain't no dummy, he knows what he's doing.

Regards,
Brian