It realy is about religion ...

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I'm certainly not on Seattle's side here, but let me play devil's advocate with you here for a moment. If I can't make decisions about you based on your beliefs, then how am I supposed to use to evaluate you. I know that you mean religious beliefs, but think about why religious beliefs ought to have an exempt status.

To me, the bottom line is that it is not illegitimate to make judgments about a person based on what they believe. Any number of extreme analogies demonstrate this. We shouldn't get our feelings hurt that evangelicals think we are wacky. We think they are wacky. Its not bigotry, its the subjective exercise of judgment, IMO.

It's not about given exempt status to religous beliefs -it's about looking past them where possible. Certainly we can agree that Mormonism is not equatable and certainly more complex and compelling that the giant spagetti god of internet lore.

The reality is people in general are not permitted, or do not permit themselves to get to the point of judging whether they like someone based upon what they believe because they permit prior assumptions attached to the label of Mormon to make that determinatiion for them.

[woot]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I am not portraying an attitude of victim hood, rather expressing my dismay at the reality of the whole situation ... 1 in 5 evangelicals voted for Romney ... 30% or more of voters have stated they will not vote for a Mormon and not because of 'those issues' as you call them.

It’s a sad day in America when such bigotry is left unchecked.

Please quit it with the persecution complex. Crazy beliefs about invisible zombies in the sky are just as valid in judging a candidate as are crazy beliefs about anything else. Unless you would happily vote for a scientologist, a wiccan, or a pastafarian you have no right to claim bigotry.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by woot

Please quit it with the persecution complex. Crazy beliefs about invisible zombies in the sky are just as valid in judging a candidate as are crazy beliefs about anything else. Unless you would happily vote for a scientologist, a wiccan, or a pastafarian you have no right to claim bigotry.

It's not my fault you are coward who lacks conviction and can only attack a person instead of engage his/her ideas. I'm not going to shy away and condone the bigotry. I am going to point at it and continue to stand up for what I believe despite your desire to belittle and censure.

[woot]

Originally Posted by tooblue

It's not my fault you are coward who lacks conviction and can only attack a person instead of engage his/her ideas. I'm not going to shy away and condone the bigotry. I am going to point it at and continue to stand up for what I believe despite your desire to belittle and censure.

I can't even count the wrong statements in there.

Look, here's the point. Bigotry connotes prejudice. Prejudice denotes an irrational unwillingness to engage with or examine an idea before passing judgment. I have engaged with Mormonism and have found it wanting. I'm not bigoted against Mormonism any more than I'm bigoted against a flat earth or flogiston.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by woot

I can't even count the wrong statements in there.

Look, here's the point. Bigotry connotes prejudice. Prejudice denotes an irrational unwillingness to engage with or examine an idea before passing judgment. I have engaged with Mormonism and have found it wanting. I'm not bigoted against Mormonism any more than I'm bigoted against a flat earth or flogiston.

Now I'm wrong? How exactly ... lol ... you can't carry on a conversation without definatively stating you are right and someone else is wrong. Think about that woot ... think about it.

And Don't change definitions now that you have been challenged -Il padrino posted the definition -go look at it.

You shunned Mormonism due to fear and cowardice. Own up to it -don't try to make your decision appear as something more.

[woot]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Now I'm wrong? How exactly ... lol ... you can't carry on a conversation without definatively stating you are right and someone else is wrong. Think about that woot ... think about.

And Don't change definitions now that you have been challenged -Il padrino postd the definition -go look at it.

You shuned Mormonism due to fear and cowardice. Own up to it -don't try to make your decision appear as something more.

I really hope you realize how little sense you are making. The only fear involved in shunning Mormonism for me was how my wife, entire family, and all my friends would handle it. Why is "cowardice" the default assumption of so many on the Right? Suicide bombers are always "cowards," for instance. I'm guessing that the term is used only because it's insulting, not because it actually means anything.

Also, I'm well aware of the definition of "bigotry," but as discussed before, under the dictionary's definition every single person is bigoted about 99.9% of everything and the term loses all meaning. The dictionary does not define words, it only reflects popular usage. Please explain how you're using it so that it means something other than simple disagreement.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by woot

I really hope you realize how little sense you are making. The only fear involved in shunning Mormonism for me was how my wife, entire family, and all my friends would handle it. Why is "cowardice" the default assumption of so many on the Right? Suicide bombers are always "cowards," for instance. I'm guessing that the term is used only because it's insulting, not because it actually means anything.

Also, I'm well aware of the definition of "bigotry," but as discussed before, under the dictionary's definition every single person is bigoted about 99.9% of everything and the term loses all meaning. The dictionary does not define words, it only reflects popular usage. Please explain how you're using it so that it means something other than simple disagreement.

The problem is I am making perfect sense and it vexes you. You want this discussion to be about me -so that you can belittle and hopefully make your self feel better about yourself. I want this discussion to be about bigotry. Interesting difference isn't there?

[woot]

Originally Posted by tooblue

The problem is I am making perfect sense and it vexes you. You want this discussion to be about me -so that you can belittle and hopefully make your self feel better about yourself. I want this discussion to be about bigotry. Interesting difference isn't there?

No really, you're not making any sense. In this case, because you ignored my inquiries about bigotry and tried to make this about you while claiming I'm trying to make it about you and not bigotry.

I don't care if Mormonism changes, just as I don't care if any other religion changes. There is nothing that any religion could do to make me think that they base their doctrines on reason. That shouldn't be an insult, as that's the point of religion. Many find comfort in that; I don't. That I reject Mormonism doesn't make me a bigot any more than rejecting atheism makes you a bigot. You just keep throwing that word around as if it's the ultimate insult without even realizing what it means.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by woot

No really, you're not making any sense. In this case, because you ignored my inquiries about bigotry and tried to make this about you while claiming I'm trying to make it about you and not bigotry.

I don't care if Mormonism changes, just as I don't care if any other religion changes. There is nothing that any religion could do to make me think that they base their doctrines on reason. That shouldn't be an insult, as that's the point of religion. Many find comfort in that; I don't. That I reject Mormonism doesn't make me a bigot any more than rejecting atheism makes you a bigot. You just keep throwing that word around as if it's the ultimate insult without even realizing what it means.

You attacked me from the get go. Your intent was not to engage my idea but to tell me what a fool I am. It's that simple.

[woot]

Originally Posted by tooblue

You attacked me from the get go. Your intent was not to engage my idea but to tell me what a fool I am. It's that simple.

That's simply not true. Even if it were true, it's extremely obvious that you prefer it to be about you, as you continually ignore everything I say about your idea.