Dehlin and Kate Kelly Face Possible Excommunication - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 06-20-2014, 03:10 PM

Quote:

First, there is no effort to tell local leaders to keep members from blogging or discussing questions online. On the contrary, Church leaders have encouraged civil online dialogue, and recognize that today it's how we communicate and discuss ideas with one another. Our whole Church was founded on the basis of sincere questions asked by a 14-year-old boy. Having questions and seeking answers is normal. Within those earnest questions may lie the seeds of faith.

The scriptures are full of examples of how to receive answers to our questions — to find truth and align our will with God's — and that process includes studying, praying, learning and discussing Church doctrines. Millions of people do this throughout their lives. How and why one asks is as important as the questions we're asking. What causes concern for Church leaders is when personal motivations drive those conversations beyond discussion, and a person or group begins recruiting others to insist on changes in Church doctrines or structure. When it goes so far as creating organized groups, staging public events to further a cause or creating literature for members to share in their local congregations, the Church has to protect the integrity of its doctrine as well as other members from being misled.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...questions.html

SeattleUte · 06-20-2014, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...questions.html

"At the heart of the conversation are matters of faith and doctrine."

I respectfully disagree.

MikeWaters · 06-23-2014, 09:37 PM

Kelly has been excommunicated.

If the church was concerned that her views were getting too much notice...well I think events have played out such that her views will get plenty of notice. Not from the media (which is glib), but from the intellectuals who have largely been ignorant of the history regarding women and ordinances.

And then it becomes a kind of modern Mormonism vs. original Mormonism debate. Which makes many people uncomfortable. Especially in the absence of any guiding scripture or official revelations.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Archaea · 06-24-2014, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Kelly has been excommunicated.

If the church was concerned that her views were getting too much notice...well I think events have played out such that her views will get plenty of notice. Not from the media (which is glib), but from the intellectuals who have largely been ignorant of the history regarding women and ordinances.

And then it becomes a kind of modern Mormonism vs. original Mormonism debate. Which makes many people uncomfortable. Especially in the absence of any guiding scripture or official revelations.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It is disappointing but unsurprising.

MikeWaters · 06-24-2014, 02:15 AM

http://www.feministmormonhousewives....power-of-pain/

Good people are hurting.

From the outside it almost looked like she was trying to get excommunicated. With her defiant approach. Perhaps she calculated it was a done deal and the best thing was to to be strong and unyielding. But from my relatively ignorant vantage, she appears to be the wrong person to make the real case that advocacy can be conducted in a way that is not apostate. She doesn't come across as terribly sympathetic to the neutral member.

The first shots have been fired. Does the war now begin? Are there going to be hundreds of excommunications? Are they going to start excommunicating the members of the OW board? And all the persons who have uploaded profiles? And what about all the grunt "soldiers" for OW that are interspersed among hundreds of wards in this country and are open supporters on social media, etc.?

This would feel like allowing a thousand district courts to act willy nilly while the SCOTUS remains silent. I expect there will be some kind of "ruling" in General Conference that will attempt to outline what faithful public discourse is like. But I also predict that it will be ambiguous and not especially helpful. Because it's hard to find guiding principles that limit speech. No one is yelling "fire".

The liberal and moderate Mormons are out of the closet and they are not going back in the closet. And it's going to be interesting to see how conservatism Mormonism is going to co-exist with the liberals/moderates.

In my perfect world, the discourse of the church would start to become more honest and start tackling tough issues. Signaling that we can go ahead and rip off some bandaids and stop worrying that "someone might lose his testimony." Because it's already clear to me that all this dancing around has led to many people losing their testimonies.

Honesty. Can I ask for it? Or is that steadying the arc?

Archaea · 06-24-2014, 03:45 PM

I don't predict social trends very well, and am sometimes slow to notice them once they start.

However, when an institution has tradition and aged men leading it, it seems it will slow once again to respond to the needs, feelings and concerns of its rank and file members. Additionally, there are many who are unconcerned with this issue, as their primary concerns are baptizing their children, getting to Scouts or paying the mortgage.

ChinoCoug · 06-24-2014, 05:38 PM

I for one think the Brethren are much more progressive than typical old white men.

1. Support for open immigration
2. Acknowledging that SSA is not a choice (ahead of Vatican).
3. Hands off (or indifference to) scientific discoveries.

MikeWaters · 06-24-2014, 06:22 PM

Progressive on SSA?

Isn't the church's official position very close to what Rick Perry recently said?

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ol-108069.html

ChinoCoug · 06-24-2014, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Progressive on SSA?

Isn't the church's official position very close to what Rick Perry recently said?

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ol-108069.html

I beg to differ on Rick Perry.

Quote:

Attraction to those of the same sex, however, should not be viewed as a disease or illness.

http://mormonsandgays.org/

Of course they're not progressive. For their demographic they are progressive.

MikeWaters · 06-24-2014, 06:58 PM

Well what I mean is that the church argues being gay is a propensity towards sin. And that acting on one's urges for physical intimacy is a sin. And the way to be righteous is to never act on those urges.

So while they may not call it an illness or disease, they kind of treat it that way. To be born with an inclination to commit sin is not a sin, but acting on it is a sin (i.e. gay marriage). Although the same act in the heterosexual sphere is not a sin (i.e. marriage).

06-24-2014, 03:45 PM	#36
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	I don't predict social trends very well, and am sometimes slow to notice them once they start. However, when an institution has tradition and aged men leading it, it seems it will slow once again to respond to the needs, feelings and concerns of its rank and file members. Additionally, there are many who are unconcerned with this issue, as their primary concerns are baptizing their children, getting to Scouts or paying the mortgage. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

06-23-2014, 09:37 PM	#33
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Kelly has been excommunicated. If the church was concerned that her views were getting too much notice...well I think events have played out such that her views will get plenty of notice. Not from the media (which is glib), but from the intellectuals who have largely been ignorant of the history regarding women and ordinances. And then it becomes a kind of modern Mormonism vs. original Mormonism debate. Which makes many people uncomfortable. Especially in the absence of any guiding scripture or official revelations. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

06-24-2014, 02:15 AM	#35
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	http://www.feministmormonhousewives....power-of-pain/ Good people are hurting. From the outside it almost looked like she was trying to get excommunicated. With her defiant approach. Perhaps she calculated it was a done deal and the best thing was to to be strong and unyielding. But from my relatively ignorant vantage, she appears to be the wrong person to make the real case that advocacy can be conducted in a way that is not apostate. She doesn't come across as terribly sympathetic to the neutral member. The first shots have been fired. Does the war now begin? Are there going to be hundreds of excommunications? Are they going to start excommunicating the members of the OW board? And all the persons who have uploaded profiles? And what about all the grunt "soldiers" for OW that are interspersed among hundreds of wards in this country and are open supporters on social media, etc.? This would feel like allowing a thousand district courts to act willy nilly while the SCOTUS remains silent. I expect there will be some kind of "ruling" in General Conference that will attempt to outline what faithful public discourse is like. But I also predict that it will be ambiguous and not especially helpful. Because it's hard to find guiding principles that limit speech. No one is yelling "fire". The liberal and moderate Mormons are out of the closet and they are not going back in the closet. And it's going to be interesting to see how conservatism Mormonism is going to co-exist with the liberals/moderates. In my perfect world, the discourse of the church would start to become more honest and start tackling tough issues. Signaling that we can go ahead and rip off some bandaids and stop worrying that "someone might lose his testimony." Because it's already clear to me that all this dancing around has led to many people losing their testimonies. Honesty. Can I ask for it? Or is that steadying the arc?

06-24-2014, 05:38 PM	#37
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	I for one think the Brethren are much more progressive than typical old white men. 1. Support for open immigration 2. Acknowledging that SSA is not a choice (ahead of Vatican). 3. Hands off (or indifference to) scientific discoveries.

06-24-2014, 06:22 PM	#38
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Progressive on SSA? Isn't the church's official position very close to what Rick Perry recently said? http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ol-108069.html

06-24-2014, 06:58 PM	#40
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Well what I mean is that the church argues being gay is a propensity towards sin. And that acting on one's urges for physical intimacy is a sin. And the way to be righteous is to never act on those urges. So while they may not call it an illness or disease, they kind of treat it that way. To be born with an inclination to commit sin is not a sin, but acting on it is a sin (i.e. gay marriage). Although the same act in the heterosexual sphere is not a sin (i.e. marriage).