On martyrdom and men's self delusions

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by creekster

In some ways, all martyrs really show tremendous faith in an after life, it seems ot me. Otherwise, what possible difference can it make if you are remembered? WHy would you possibly care? THis is somethign I have never been able to grasp.

Sometimes I would think it is the opposite. That they will be remembered is the only immortality they can have.

The people that shoot students at a college. They are trying to make their mark. "Billy wuz here 2007"

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Sometimes I would think it is the opposite. That they will be remembered is the only immortality they can have.

The people that shoot students at a college. They are trying to make their mark. "Billy wuz here 2007"

I have heard that but I can't get my mind around it. WHat value does immortality have if you can't see it, feel it, touch it or understand it? If you are not there or even observing, who cares? This is particualry true for people that create the immortality bestowing condition, menaing shoters at schools, for example.

[SeattleUte]

I'm with Waters on this. Well stated.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by creekster

In some ways, all martyrs really show tremendous faith in an after life, it seems ot me. Otherwise, what possible difference can it make if you are remembered? WHy would you possibly care? THis is somethign I have never been able to grasp.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Sometimes I would think it is the opposite. That they will be remembered is the only immortality they can have.

The people that shoot students at a college. They are trying to make their mark. "Billy wuz here 2007"

I think Waters' idea is a common one in history and literature. Achilles went to Troy, knowing he would never come home, because he would have undying fame. That type of glory (Greeks called it kleos) was really the only kind of afterlife that a human could expect. When Odysseus visits Achilles in the underworld, Achilles informs him that he would rather be a lowly slave on earth than king of the dead. Life was the time to make your mark, and hopefully you would be remembered after it was over. Death sucked.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Solon

I think Waters' idea is a common one in history and literature. Achilles went to Troy, knowing he would never come home, because he would have undying fame. That type of glory (Greeks called it kleos) was really the only kind of afterlife that a human could expect. When Odysseus visits Achilles in the underworld, Achilles informs him that he would rather be a lowly slave on earth than king of the dead. Life was the time to make your mark, and hopefully you would be remembered after it was over. Death sucked.

Achilles went to Troy for glory and to pursue success and to defend his King's honor in THIS life. He knew about the prophecy of death, but he also knew it was his fate and so he went willingly. THere is some difference in my mind between that approach (i.e. hero on the battlefield, for home and hearth, etc.) and saying "Everybody hates me I think I'll blow up my school so they'll recall me when I die." I wouldn't give a rat's rear end if anyone remembers me when I die unless I am there to see it or otherwsie appreacite it. If not, why does it matter? OTOH, if faced with a matter of great importance to me or my family or my country, I would take comfort in knowing I would be remembered, but I would act for those issues in THIS life.

Btw, I'm not trying to suggest that you or MW are wrong abotu what you see in literature, etc., but I am saying when I look at guys like the colombine losers, I just don't get their motivation to the extent it involves making a mark of immortality.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm with Waters on this. Well stated.

You're with him? What is that supposed to mean? Are you seeing an argument here?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by creekster

Achilles went to Troy for glory and to pursue success and to defend his King's honor in THIS life. He knew about the prophecy of death, but he also knew it was his fate and so he went willingly. THere is some difference in my mind between that approach (i.e. hero on the battlefield, for home and hearth, etc.) and saying "Everybody hates me I think I'll blow up my school so they'll recall me when I die." I wouldn't give a rat's rear end if anyone remembers me when I die unless I am there to see it or otherwsie appreacite it. If not, why does it matter? OTOH, if faced with a matter of great importance to me or my family or my country, I would take comfort in knowing I would be remembered, but I would act for those issues in THIS life.

Btw, I'm not trying to suggest that you or MW are wrong abotu what you see in literature, etc., but I am saying when I look at guys like the colombine losers, I just don't get their motivation to the extent it involves making a mark of immortality.

Achilles didn't give two hoots about his King's honor. The theme of the Iliad is his anger toward Agamemnon. It was all about personal glory and being remembered.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by All-American

Achilles didn't give two hoots about his King's honor. The theme of the Iliad is his anger toward Agamemnon. It was all about personal glory and being remembered.

You're right on the King issue, but my overall puzzlement on this issue is still hanging out there.

Do you mena to say the Personal Glory is also post-life? Do you think he wasn't seeking glory in this life, menaing glory he could enjoy, even if briefly?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by creekster

You're right on the King issue, but my overall puzzlement on this issue is still hanging out there.

Do you mena to say the Personal Glory is also post-life? Do you think he wasn't seeking glory in this life, menaing glory he could enjoy, even if briefly?

Well, he's gonna be dead one way or another. Might as well have people remember you.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by All-American

Well, he's gonna be dead one way or another. Might as well have people remember you.

Hmmm. That's where I don't get it. Who cares if they remeber? Why does it matter? We're all going to be dead anyway no matter what so that can't be what drives it.