I sent this email to my Bishop.. Is there something I am missing?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Tex

I believe there were two talks in Priesthood Session of Oct '06 that addressed just this concern.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...646-18,00.html

http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...646-23,00.html

Good talks. Thanks.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by creekster

One of my pet peeves about church culture (and not doctrine) is how men are expected and even enoucraged to be slack-jawed spiritual and cultural idiots and women are expected to take up the slack (I realize I'm mixing slacks here, but you get the point). In our ward whenever there is any social event the men always jokingly say how the women have to be in charrge for ti to be any good and the women in the RS actually ENOUCRAEG this thinking. It drives me wild. This goes beyond cereal and doughnuts, but that example is certainly symptomatic. One of the main reasons men are lazy and never do their share is becaseu no one expects them to. This is not ocnsistent, IMO, with the mantle of the priesthood and the expectations of God.

This is no pet peeve of mine. I happen to think that, very generally, women are better at somethings than men are and vice versa. My wife is infinitely better at planning events than I am. She brings a feminine touch and creativity to that process that I do not possess. I am much better in that situation at taking direction. This isn't because I am lazy.

Look at the relief society room before the lesson next week. There will be flowers on the table, maybe a table cloth and some other object. This sort of thing just never crosses the mind of man. Nor is it much appreciated by man.

If I want something done classy, my wife is in charge.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

This is no pet peeve of mine. I happen to think that, very generally, women are better at somethings than men are and vice versa. My wife is infinitely better at planning events than I am. She brings a feminine touch and creativity to that process that I do not possess. I am much better in that situation at taking direction. This isn't because I am lazy.

Look at the relief society room before the lesson next week. There will be flowers on the table, maybe a table cloth and some other object. This sort of thing just never crosses the mind of man. Nor is it much appreciated by man.

If I want something done classy, my wife is in charge.

Agreed. I used to tease my wife that the unofficial motto of LDS YW leaders is "If something is worth doing, it is worth overdoing."

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by creekster

I am talking about the cultural tendency to exalt the social and spiritual competence of women as an excuse to avoid cultivating those same traits in men. If you haven't' seen this, then either you have never been in leadership or you have a very different ward than mine. I have never said women work too hard or are too spiritual. to the contrary, they are doing fine. I find fault with men (and women that encourage this view) who lay off their role to women because women are better at it or more prepared or more spiritual etc. This is a lame excuse and should not be encouraged or allowed. I see this happen ALL THE TIME at the ward and stake level when planning activities, firesides, lessons, etc. It is embedded in our culture and almost presents a barrier to the progress of many men, IMO.

I simply do not see the cultural tendency you are talking about. I have ocassionaly seen instances of the one specific example you've cited of this tendency: the example of "We better let the women organize this social event because if we leave it up to the men then it won't be any good". I do not see that translating into men "abdicating their role as spiritual leaders". I do not see it translating into how households are run or translating into how assignments are made in the church (other than the organizing of social events). You say you see it happen all the time. Well sir, we must have been in very different wards throughout our lives because I simply don't see it happening like you describe.

Because I don't see it happening like you describe, I would appreciate some examples:
- How does it translate into the household?
- How does it translate into how assignments are made in church (again, aside from the organizing of social things)?
- Where are men abdicating their roles as spiritual leaders?

Although I don't really see widespread evidence of exalting the social and spiritual qualities of women in a large sense, let's assume for the moment that it's true. Perhaps I need reading comprehension lessons but I don't see that you've presented any evidence to support your argument/assumption that said exaltation is happening "as an excuse to avoid cultivating those same traits in men".

The first part of my previous post (the part about HT/VT) was directed at Requiem but it also plays into my main point which is that I believe men AREN'T abdicating their roles as spiritual leaders. I think in certain cases their roles are more difficult than women, HT vs. VT in particular, and that certain things one cites as evidence of men abdicating their role are in fact just examples of the more difficult nature of that role. The various examples of duties under the priesthood that I cited are examples of how men are currently filling their role as spiritual leaders.

The budget comment was indeed an emotional swipe at the ladies - guilty as charged; however, now that I think more about it, I do believe that it has some relevance to the underlying discussion. Perhaps one way to avoid exalting the "social competence" of women is to slash that bloated entertainment budget?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

I simply do not see the cultural tendency you are talking about. I have ocassionaly seen instances of the one specific example you've cited of this tendency: the example of "We better let the women organize this social event because if we leave it up to the men then it won't be any good". I do not see that translating into men "abdicating their role as spiritual leaders". I do not see it translating into how households are run or translating into how assignments are made in the church (other than the organizing of social events). You say you see it happen all the time. Well sir, we must have been in very different wards throughout our lives because I simply don't see it happening like you describe.

Because I don't see it happening like you describe, I would appreciate some examples:
- How does it translate into the household?
- How does it translate into how assignments are made in church (again, aside from the organizing of social things)?
- Where are men abdicating their roles as spiritual leaders?

Although I don't really see widespread evidence of exalting the social and spiritual qualities of women in a large sense, let's assume for the moment that it's true. Perhaps I need reading comprehension lessons but I don't see that you've presented any evidence to support your argument/assumption that said exaltation is happening "as an excuse to avoid cultivating those same traits in men".

The first part of my previous post (the part about HT/VT) was directed at Requiem but it also plays into my main point which is that I believe men AREN'T abdicating their roles as spiritual leaders. I think in certain cases their roles are more difficult than women, HT vs. VT in particular, and that certain things one cites as evidence of men abdicating their role are in fact just examples of the more difficult nature of that role. The various examples of duties under the priesthood that I cited are examples of how men are currently filling their role as spiritual leaders.

The budget comment was indeed an emotional swipe at the ladies - guilty as charged; however, now that I think more about it, I do believe that it has some relevance to the underlying discussion. Perhaps one way to avoid exalting the "social competence" of women is to slash that bloated entertainment budget?

The only evidence I can present is anecdotal, as is yours. Within my experience, however, men are far too willing to relinquish leadership on a variety of roles involving fellowshipping, missionary work (in a social sense, no in door knocking), in preparing and presenting social events, and in shouldering their fair share of the load in these areas. Leadership in the priesthood is more than simply showing up when someone needs a blessing, or popping up to bless the sacrament. It is leadership in all facets of the gospel, including those mentioned. My statements here should not be construed to mean that I think men are abject failures in all aspects of their responsibilities, or that women are necessarily doing too much. Instead, I think only that many men are too willing to joke about their willingness to rely on women for too much.

On balance, this shouldn't be overstated. It is, after all, only a pet peeve, not an indictment of the system or of my own gender.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by creekster

The only evidence I can present is anecdotal, as is yours. Within my experience, however, men are far too willing to relinquish leadership on a variety of roles involving fellowshipping, missionary work (in a social sense, no in door knocking), in preparing and presenting social events, and in shouldering their fair share of the load in these areas. Leadership in the priesthood is more than simply showing up when someone needs a blessing, or popping up to bless the sacrament. It is leadership in all facets of the gospel, including those mentioned. My statements here should not be construed to mean that I think men are abject failures in all aspects of their responsibilities, or that women are necessarily doing too much. Instead, I think only that many men are too willing to joke about their willingness to rely on women for too much.

On balance, this shouldn't be overstated. It is, after all, only a pet peeve, not an indictment of the system or of my own gender.

I think I see what you are talking about a little more. It is maybe that men are more introverted? I'll sing my wife's praises again as an example. I cam home a few days ago and she had obviously been busy preparing a pretty elaborate meal but I couldn't see what she had done with it.

Me: Where is all the food you cooked?

Her: I took it to Frank and Carol.

Me: Who?

Her: (Looking at me like I'm dumb) Our neighbors.

Me: Oh. Are they new in the neighborhood or something?

Her: (Now looking at me as if to say, how did I wind up with you) No they have been a few doors down for a year and she just had a baby.

The point is, she has gone out of her way to not only know our neighbors names but to know what is happening in their lives and think of a way to serve them. Could just be personalities, but if what you are saying is that this is the sort of thing women do much better at than men (for example) then I whole heartedly agree.

[Runner Coug]

Originally Posted by YOhio

I'm glad this tradition has ended. I hate ward potlucks. A lot of bad crock pot food and caseroles with corn flakes.

I'm late to the thread, but I hate ward dinners, too. There are a couple of women in my ward who seem to somewhat lackadaisical about their personal hygiene, and the thought of eating something they made makes me sick. And since I don't know what they brought, I just don't eat.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Bishop,

A couple of months ago I asked about the Deacons helping with setting up the sacrament as we only have one teacher. As I reading in D&C 20 this afternoon I came upon these verses. Please note verse 57. Doesn't our situation meet the "If occasion requires" clause? Am I way off here in my interpretation of the D&C?

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;
54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;
55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.
56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—
57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

I got resolution from My bishop regarding this.

We can have deacon help but they can't put the water in the cups they can only take the filled cups and put them on the stand... I guess he and the stake president came to a resolution. Apparently the handbook says on page 37 that the Teacher are assigned to prepare the sacrament. It doesn't say that the deacons can't help just that the teachers are assigned to do it. I am just wondering why they can't just agree with my assertion and have the deacon help out... oh well at least I wont helping any longer