Okay defenders of Hawaii in the BCS

[Judge Smails]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

What did BYU do to prove they were a top 10 team that Hawaii didn't? Don't bother me with a 3-7-1 Pitt team or a barely 0.500 Baylor team. That's no more impressive than Boise State at home or Nevada on the road.

they won their bowl game - a bowl game against a team who (outside of Georgia) was better than a single team on Hawaii's schedule this year.

I also believe WAC 84 >> WAC 07

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Ace Tomato Co.

I know that you are intelligent enough to distinguish between BYU's football program in '84 and Hawaii's in '07, and between our '84 schedule vs. Hawaii's '07 schedule. So quit distorting to try and prove a point.

That being said, of course BYU did not "win" or "deserve" a national championship in 1984. The only people who don't chuckle when our '84 championship is mentioned are BYU fans. We deserved a spot in a playoff, and Hawaii did this year as well.

How much distortion is going on here?

BYU had the second worst SOS of any national champion in the last 50 years (61-85-3 41.9), only a hair better than Georgia 1980.

Only two of BYU's opponents were better than 6-5. AFA (8-4) and Hawaii (7-4) both of which they beat by 5 points. Baylor was actually 5-6, so they weren't a 0.500 team.

The other 0.500 or better teams BYU played:

Michigan (6-6) - won by 7 in an ugly game
Wyoming (6-6) - won by 3 at the last minute at home. Wyoming was only 6-6 because they beat both South Dakota and Soutth Dakota State that year.
Utah (6-5-1) - won by 10 in another ugly game
Tulsa (6-5) - won by 23, but Tulsa was the equivalent of a 1-AA team that year in the Missouri Valley Conference.

So why was BYU a top 10 team that year?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Judge Smails

they won their bowl game - a bowl game against a team who (outside of Georgia) was better than a single team on Hawaii's schedule this year.

I also believe WAC 84 >> WAC 07

You're out of your freaking mind if you think the 1984 WAC was better than the 2007 WAC. At the very least, it's a push.

http://www.cougarstats.com/1984.html

[Judge Smails]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

That's the best you can come up with?

in support of Hawaii?

Trust me, I've come up with plenty. This is like my 150th post on this site. Probably 130 of them have bashed Hawaii's schedule. It was worse than Southern Utah's this year. Seriously.

I'm yet to see a single good Pro-Hawaii-BCS claim made by you that stands up.

I'm okay with a poor SOS going undefeated and making a BCS game. Again, there weren't a lot of other viable candidates for that spot. But a schedule as abysmal as Hawaii's should not be rewarded.

What was BYU's SOS in 1984 (I have no idea, but I'm betting it wasn't dead last in D-1 or #137 {Sagarin})

Where would YOU rank BYU in 1984?

Voters were as dumb then as they are now.

[Ace Tomato Co.]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

How much distortion is going on here?

BYU had the second worst SOS of any national champion in the last 50 years (61-85-3 41.9), only a hair better than Georgia 1980.

Only two of BYU's opponents were better than 6-5. AFA (8-4) and Hawaii (7-4) both of which they beat by 5 points. Baylor was actually 5-6, so they weren't a 0.500 team.

The other 0.500 or better teams BYU played:

Michigan (6-6) - won by 7 in an ugly game
Wyoming (6-6) - won by 3 at the last minute at home. Wyoming was only 6-6 because they beat both South Dakota and Soutth Dakota State that year.
Utah (6-5-1) - won by 10 in another ugly game
Tulsa (6-5) - won by 23, but Tulsa was the equivalent of a 1-AA team that year in the Missouri Valley Conference.

So why was BYU a top 10 team that year?

Look, that's comical. The lowest SOS "of any national champion"? That's supposed to compare to an SOS of 119?

But we are off of my main point, which was that Hawaii didn't deserve a major bowl this year and should have been ranked 40th. If you are craving intellectual honesty, I'm first in line to admit BYU in '84 didn't deserve a national championship.

Wanting intellectual honesty from BYU fans is fine, but don't push Hawaii '07 vs. BYU '84 to get it.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Judge Smails

in support of Hawaii?

Trust me, I've come up with plenty. This is like my 150th post on this site. Probably 130 of them have bashed Hawaii's schedule. It was worse than Southern Utah's this year. Seriously.

I'm yet to see a single good Pro-Hawaii-BCS claim made by you that stands up.

I'm okay with a poor SOS going undefeated and making a BCS game. Again, there weren't a lot of other viable candidates for that spot. But a schedule as abysmal as Hawaii's should not be rewarded.

What was BYU's SOS in 1984 (I have no idea, but I'm betting it wasn't dead last in D-1 or #137 {Sagarin})

Where would YOU rank BYU in 1984?

Voters were as dumb then as they are now.

Hawaii SOS 2007: 50-69-0 (0.420)
BYU SOS 1984: 61-85-3 (0.419)

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Inte...games_cumm.pdf

Unfortunately, that excludes all the wins over 1-AA teams that Hawaii's opponents played, otherwise, they'd be even further ahead of BYU.

[Judge Smails]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You're out of your freaking mind if you think the 1984 WAC was better than the 2007 WAC. At the very least, it's a push.

http://www.cougarstats.com/1984.html

that BYU was a clear top 10 that year. Here's how 5 computers ranked BYU in 1984 after beating Michigan (taken from anti-BYU NC material):

Howell - 1
Dunkel - 4
Massey - 6
Rothman - 3
Wilson - 2

BYU was almost undoubtedly a top 10 team in 1984, which is all I've claimed them to be, probably top 5.

Hawaii in the same 5 ratings BEFORE the debacle in N'Orleans:

Howell - 13
Dunkel - 21
Massey -10
Rothman -22
Wilson - 9

That's an average of 15th. Guess which direction that's gonna head after New Years.

BYU 1984 Apples > Hawaii 2007 Rotten Oranges

It's not even the same discussion, so stop bringing it up. They say people look like their animals. You're looking like your avatar on this topic.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Ace Tomato Co.

Look, that's comical. The lowest SOS "of any national champion"? That's supposed to compare to an SOS of 119?

But we are off of my main point, which was that Hawaii didn't deserve a major bowl this year and should have been ranked 40th. If you are craving intellectual honesty, I'm first in line to admit BYU in '84 didn't deserve a national championship.

Wanting intellectual honesty from BYU fans is fine, but don't push Hawaii '07 vs. BYU '84 to get it.

I think you're seriously smoking something to think Hawaii is worse than 39 other teams, while at the same time conceding that BYU 1984 was in the ballpark of being a top 10 team.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Judge Smails

that BYU was a clear top 10 that year. Here's how 5 computers ranked BYU in 1984 after beating Michigan (taken from anti-BYU NC material):

Howell - 1
Dunkel - 4
Massey - 6
Rothman - 3
Wilson - 2

BYU was almost undoubtedly a top 10 team in 1984, which is all I've claimed them to be, probably top 5.

Hawaii in the same 5 ratings BEFORE the debacle in N'Orleans:

Howell - 13
Dunkel - 21
Massey -10
Rothman -22
Wilson - 9

That's an average of 15th. Guess which direction that's gonna head after New Years.

BYU 1984 Apples > Hawaii 2007 Rotten Oranges

It's not even the same discussion, so stop bringing it up. They say people look like their animals. You're looking like your avatar on this topic.

I chose my avatar based on the people I have to deal with on this site. The computer polls have Hawaii significantly higher than where you want to put them.

[Judge Smails]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Hawaii SOS 2007: 50-69-0 (0.420)
BYU SOS 1984: 61-85-3 (0.419)

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Inte...games_cumm.pdf

Unfortunately, that excludes all the wins over 1-AA teams that Hawaii's opponents played, otherwise, they'd be even further ahead of BYU.

and we saw how that went.

What was BYU's SOS rated in comparison to the rest of D-1 in 1984. (I recognize this is a dumb argument - obviously it was bad, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't dead last)