I've had to reanalyze my take on next year's b-ball team. - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

K-dog · 03-26-2008, 04:47 PM

I kept feeling like I was missing something in the equation and last night I figured out what I was missing. I then spoke to a couple well known basketball minds (coaches and commentators) and determined that I was right.

Previously I have consistently discounted Morgan because of what I saw in him early in the year. He looked slow, talentless, had an ugly shot etc. He also had 3 years to play 2. My thought was that coach would put him on the end of the bench and ignore him with the hopes that the kid would go somewhere else to play and the scholarship would open or, in the worst case scenario, Morgan would stay around and be here two years before we got him off the books. That's what you do with guys who turn out not to be as good as you had hoped. For an example of this, look at Rose. That kid sucks and we're using up his eligibility to get him off the books.

Coach didn't do this with Morgan. He redshirted Morgan. This makes me think he saw something I didn't see. Not only did he redshirt Morgan, he gave Jimmer reserve minutes AT THE TWO SPOT. Jimmer is a pg and has always been a pg but Rose converted him to a two instead of having him back-up Murdock all season. We only saw Jimmer at the 1 consistently when Murdock went down with injury.

So I started thinking to myself, "Self, why would coach do these weird things?" Then it occurred to me. Coach sees Morgan as a guy who can really contribute at the point as a two year starter. A guy who can guard other points and who can create shots for teammates like Jimmer, Lee, TP etc.

I admit that I didn't see this in Lamont so I started talking to basketball people. I spoke to those who are generally basketball savy and those who know the Cougar team. I'm not talking about generally savy like dudes on this board, I'm talking about guys who coach at the college level, work as scouts for the NBA etc. or are involved in the BYU athletic department with their fingers in basketball. I found something interesting.

Rose is high on Morgan...very high on Morgan. The coaching staff thinks he will start next year. His reserve could be Pinegar or Loyd (if Pinegar, Loyd will redshirt). Our 2 will be Jimmer who will actually start over Pinegar or Loyd if Morgan gets hurt but otherwise will be our 2. A good way to describe it is to say that we'll take a page from UCLA's songbook, playing with two pgs.

Lee will play 3 and 2. JT will play 3 and 4. Anderson and Miles will both see time at the 4 and 5. MacGregor will be TPs defensive backup at the 5. Hartsock and Emery will both play depending on their post mission recovery time. Abuou will see back up time behind Lee at the 3.

The starting 5 might not include JT. Hartsock, Anderson or Miles might all take his place at the 4 depending on conditioning and ability to shoot from 15 feet.

The coaches are looking for two guys who can play wing/forward spot (either a 2/3 or a 3/4 type from the JC ranks). They think PG is good to go for a while and are excited about having the flexibility to redshirt Loyd if needed.

Rose will see garbage time or might leave.

Prof-Bball · 03-26-2008, 07:33 PM

Sorry to reply to the same post on two sites but I was thinking about this a little more and I have to disagree with something. I beleive that the reason the coaching staff redshirted Lamont wasn't because they were worried about the future. It was because they were worried about this year. They only had one spot on their active roster for one back up pg and it was going to be either Lloyd or morgan. They predetermined that Jimmer was going to be the scorer off the bench ,ala Mike Rose or Tavernari last year, and therefore they stuck him at 2 without even evaluating his pg skills or potential. The reason that they "rolled the dice" on Lloyd was becayse he completely out played Lamont in the Tipoff and the 2 exhibition games.

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9798

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9836

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9864

I'm not saying that Lamont is not going to be a contributor next year or that he has not really improved since the start of the season, but you have to remember that part of a coaches job is to spin things and give his players confidence(Do you really think the reason Murdock only played 6 minutes vs aTm was because of his ankle?). Rose saying that he thinks Lamont is going to be a big contributer at the point next year could mean 10mpg. He always goes off about the contribution of Lloyd this year and I think he got 9mpg. The point is you can't really listen to the coach when he is talking about new players because he is never going to be critical.

With the emergence of Jimmer at pg on a national stage at the highest level I doubt Lamont will ever be more than a solid backup. He will help us out in certain situations with his strengths, like releiving ball pressure and defending short but super quick guards like Jones or maybe Walker, but more than that I dont think we can speculate.

There is the possibility that we can't find anyone to do an adequate job at the 2 and Lamont will start moving jimmer over to the 2. But between Lloyd, Emery, and depending on what the coaches can find inbetween now and then from JC's, I would venture that we can find someone who will step up and take the starting role at the 2 who will be adequate. And after seeing how this season ended I think that is the more likely scenario expecially come tourney time.

Goatnapper'96 · 03-26-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof-Bball

There is the possibility that we can't find anyone to do an adequate job at the 2 and Lamont will start moving jimmer over to the 2. But between Lloyd, Emery, and depending on what the coaches can find inbetween now and then from JC's, I would venture that we can find someone who will step up and take the starting role at the 2 who will be adequate. And after seeing how this season ended I think that is the more likely scenario expecially come tourney time.

This is my belief. Jimmer will start next year. Which position he starts at will be dictated by what BYU can get out of JC ball and what type of shape Jackson Emery returns in. Jimmer will be part of BYU's best 5 players. On the perimeter, Lee will obviously start also. The other perimeter starter is yet to be determined.

K-dog · 03-26-2008, 08:02 PM

My thought is that Jimmer and Morgan will both start and that their roles will be similar. We will play more of a 2 pg scheme than a pg/sg scheme. That's why I think it will look like what UCLA did this year. Morgan will be used less as a scorer, more for passing, handling and on the ball pressure D. Jimmer will be more like the pgs that Rose has used in the past. Guys who can handle, penetrate a bit and really shoot from range. I think Jimmer will take most of JTs offensive shots next year and JT will find his way to the bench.

jay santos · 03-26-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof-Bball

Sorry to reply to the same post on two sites but I was thinking about this a little more and I have to disagree with something. I beleive that the reason the coaching staff redshirted Lamont wasn't because they were worried about the future. It was because they were worried about this year. They only had one spot on their active roster for one back up pg and it was going to be either Lloyd or morgan. They predetermined that Jimmer was going to be the scorer off the bench ,ala Mike Rose or Tavernari last year, and therefore they stuck him at 2 without even evaluating his pg skills or potential. The reason that they "rolled the dice" on Lloyd was becayse he completely out played Lamont in the Tipoff and the 2 exhibition games.

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9798

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9836

http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9864

I'm not saying that Lamont is not going to be a contributor next year or that he has not really improved since the start of the season, but you have to remember that part of a coaches job is to spin things and give his players confidence(Do you really think the reason Murdock only played 6 minutes vs aTm was because of his ankle?). Rose saying that he thinks Lamont is going to be a big contributer at the point next year could mean 10mpg. He always goes off about the contribution of Lloyd this year and I think he got 9mpg. The point is you can't really listen to the coach when he is talking about new players because he is never going to be critical.

With the emergence of Jimmer at pg on a national stage at the highest level I doubt Lamont will ever be more than a solid backup. He will help us out in certain situations with his strengths, like releiving ball pressure and defending short but super quick guards like Jones or maybe Walker, but more than that I dont think we can speculate.

There is the possibility that we can't find anyone to do an adequate job at the 2 and Lamont will start moving jimmer over to the 2. But between Lloyd, Emery, and depending on what the coaches can find inbetween now and then from JC's, I would venture that we can find someone who will step up and take the starting role at the 2 who will be adequate. And after seeing how this season ended I think that is the more likely scenario expecially come tourney time.

I agree with this.

Redshirting Morgan is an extremely baffling decision to me. If Morgan is awesome, we needed him this year. If he sucked, we needed to move him off scholarship ASAP. The redshirt came from left field.

At that point of the season, pg and backup pg were important spots to nail down, and I truly believe Rose went with (or at least SHOULD HAVE gone with) the best two pg's at the time. In Rose's mind, that was Murdock and Loyd. Loyd did outplay Morgan, and I believe at one point Loyd was the future pg of the program (early in the season).

Jimmer is definitely without question the pg of the future. I would be shocked if Morgan starts next year. The only possibility would be if there is no decent option at 2 (Emery/Loyd/new recruit) and Loyd and/or Morgan step up in the offseason. I would expect that to be Loyd based on the fact that Morgan sucked last fall and Loyd is younger and now more experienced.

Morgan is seriously 5'7. I saw him walking with Loyd and Loyd looked a foot taller. Morgan has no shot. Is not aggressive with the ball. He's worse than Murdock.

I expect Jimmer at the 1 and a combo of Emery/Loyd/new recruit.

MikeWaters · 03-26-2008, 09:16 PM

Hey geniuses, you are not a combo 1/2 if you can't score and hit shots. There is a reason the 2 is called "shooting guard".

jay santos · 03-26-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Hey geniuses, you are not a combo 1/2 if you can't score and hit shots. There is a reason the 2 is called "shooting guard".

Who are you implying is the guy that is not a combo?

K-dog · 03-26-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

Who are you implying is the guy that is not a combo?

Any idea what Mike's talking about? I didn't notice any confusion on what a combo guard was.

UteStar · 03-26-2008, 10:56 PM

This is always dangerous to do, but I am about to do it--look at what he did before he got to the Y.

High School, he earned all-valley honors, and was named the team's most improved player.

Community College:
Freshman year: 3.2 points per game, 2.7 assists
Soph Year: 7.3 points per game, 4.4 assists

It lists him at 5'10" which means that he is probably 2 inches at least shorter. And it does not appear that he was recruited by anyone else. What does this mean? Who knows...but it would take a HUUUUGGGGEEEE leap to think that he is the answer to your Point Guard problems next year. Now watch--kid comes in, pulls an Allen Iverson and is a star. Problem is, nothing on his resume comes close to suggesting that.

Goatnapper'96 · 03-27-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UteStar

This is always dangerous to do, but I am about to do it--look at what he did before he got to the Y.

High School, he earned all-valley honors, and was named the team's most improved player.

Community College:
Freshman year: 3.2 points per game, 2.7 assists
Soph Year: 7.3 points per game, 4.4 assists

It lists him at 5'10" which means that he is probably 2 inches at least shorter. And it does not appear that he was recruited by anyone else. What does this mean? Who knows...but it would take a HUUUUGGGGEEEE leap to think that he is the answer to your Point Guard problems next year. Now watch--kid comes in, pulls an Allen Iverson and is a star. Problem is, nothing on his resume comes close to suggesting that.

I really believed when it was announced to redshirt him that the reason was that Rose recognized he had made a huge blunder and he was telling the kid that BYU had screwed up but we would preserve his elgibility and he could transfer to a smaller division to play ball.

Perhaps he will be at BYU but I sense a role player. He will come off the bench to defend really quick pgs that are killing BYU through penetration.

Jimmer is going to start at either the 1 or the 2. Which one it is going to be will be dictated by either the playing shape Jackson Emery is in or by what BYU can attract from the JC ranks.

03-26-2008, 04:47 PM	#1
K-dog Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 699	I've had to reanalyze my take on next year's b-ball team. I kept feeling like I was missing something in the equation and last night I figured out what I was missing. I then spoke to a couple well known basketball minds (coaches and commentators) and determined that I was right. Previously I have consistently discounted Morgan because of what I saw in him early in the year. He looked slow, talentless, had an ugly shot etc. He also had 3 years to play 2. My thought was that coach would put him on the end of the bench and ignore him with the hopes that the kid would go somewhere else to play and the scholarship would open or, in the worst case scenario, Morgan would stay around and be here two years before we got him off the books. That's what you do with guys who turn out not to be as good as you had hoped. For an example of this, look at Rose. That kid sucks and we're using up his eligibility to get him off the books. Coach didn't do this with Morgan. He redshirted Morgan. This makes me think he saw something I didn't see. Not only did he redshirt Morgan, he gave Jimmer reserve minutes AT THE TWO SPOT. Jimmer is a pg and has always been a pg but Rose converted him to a two instead of having him back-up Murdock all season. We only saw Jimmer at the 1 consistently when Murdock went down with injury. So I started thinking to myself, "Self, why would coach do these weird things?" Then it occurred to me. Coach sees Morgan as a guy who can really contribute at the point as a two year starter. A guy who can guard other points and who can create shots for teammates like Jimmer, Lee, TP etc. I admit that I didn't see this in Lamont so I started talking to basketball people. I spoke to those who are generally basketball savy and those who know the Cougar team. I'm not talking about generally savy like dudes on this board, I'm talking about guys who coach at the college level, work as scouts for the NBA etc. or are involved in the BYU athletic department with their fingers in basketball. I found something interesting. Rose is high on Morgan...very high on Morgan. The coaching staff thinks he will start next year. His reserve could be Pinegar or Loyd (if Pinegar, Loyd will redshirt). Our 2 will be Jimmer who will actually start over Pinegar or Loyd if Morgan gets hurt but otherwise will be our 2. A good way to describe it is to say that we'll take a page from UCLA's songbook, playing with two pgs. Lee will play 3 and 2. JT will play 3 and 4. Anderson and Miles will both see time at the 4 and 5. MacGregor will be TPs defensive backup at the 5. Hartsock and Emery will both play depending on their post mission recovery time. Abuou will see back up time behind Lee at the 3. The starting 5 might not include JT. Hartsock, Anderson or Miles might all take his place at the 4 depending on conditioning and ability to shoot from 15 feet. The coaches are looking for two guys who can play wing/forward spot (either a 2/3 or a 3/4 type from the JC ranks). They think PG is good to go for a while and are excited about having the flexibility to redshirt Loyd if needed. Rose will see garbage time or might leave. __________________ He's down by the creek, walkin' on water. K-dog P.S. Grrrrrrrrr Last edited by K-dog; 03-26-2008 at 04:51 PM.

03-26-2008, 07:33 PM	#2
Prof-Bball Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 43	Sorry to reply to the same post on two sites but I was thinking about this a little more and I have to disagree with something. I beleive that the reason the coaching staff redshirted Lamont wasn't because they were worried about the future. It was because they were worried about this year. They only had one spot on their active roster for one back up pg and it was going to be either Lloyd or morgan. They predetermined that Jimmer was going to be the scorer off the bench ,ala Mike Rose or Tavernari last year, and therefore they stuck him at 2 without even evaluating his pg skills or potential. The reason that they "rolled the dice" on Lloyd was becayse he completely out played Lamont in the Tipoff and the 2 exhibition games. http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9798 http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9836 http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=9864 I'm not saying that Lamont is not going to be a contributor next year or that he has not really improved since the start of the season, but you have to remember that part of a coaches job is to spin things and give his players confidence(Do you really think the reason Murdock only played 6 minutes vs aTm was because of his ankle?). Rose saying that he thinks Lamont is going to be a big contributer at the point next year could mean 10mpg. He always goes off about the contribution of Lloyd this year and I think he got 9mpg. The point is you can't really listen to the coach when he is talking about new players because he is never going to be critical. With the emergence of Jimmer at pg on a national stage at the highest level I doubt Lamont will ever be more than a solid backup. He will help us out in certain situations with his strengths, like releiving ball pressure and defending short but super quick guards like Jones or maybe Walker, but more than that I dont think we can speculate. There is the possibility that we can't find anyone to do an adequate job at the 2 and Lamont will start moving jimmer over to the 2. But between Lloyd, Emery, and depending on what the coaches can find inbetween now and then from JC's, I would venture that we can find someone who will step up and take the starting role at the 2 who will be adequate. And after seeing how this season ended I think that is the more likely scenario expecially come tourney time. Last edited by Prof-Bball; 03-26-2008 at 07:46 PM.

03-26-2008, 08:02 PM	#4
K-dog Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 699	My thought is that Jimmer and Morgan will both start and that their roles will be similar. We will play more of a 2 pg scheme than a pg/sg scheme. That's why I think it will look like what UCLA did this year. Morgan will be used less as a scorer, more for passing, handling and on the ball pressure D. Jimmer will be more like the pgs that Rose has used in the past. Guys who can handle, penetrate a bit and really shoot from range. I think Jimmer will take most of JTs offensive shots next year and JT will find his way to the bench. __________________ He's down by the creek, walkin' on water. K-dog P.S. Grrrrrrrrr

03-26-2008, 10:56 PM	#9
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	This is always dangerous to do, but I am about to do it--look at what he did before he got to the Y. High School, he earned all-valley honors, and was named the team's most improved player. Community College: Freshman year: 3.2 points per game, 2.7 assists Soph Year: 7.3 points per game, 4.4 assists It lists him at 5'10" which means that he is probably 2 inches at least shorter. And it does not appear that he was recruited by anyone else. What does this mean? Who knows...but it would take a HUUUUGGGGEEEE leap to think that he is the answer to your Point Guard problems next year. Now watch--kid comes in, pulls an Allen Iverson and is a star. Problem is, nothing on his resume comes close to suggesting that. __________________ UteStar's words to live by: "I'm not about play-play, I'm really about business." Goatnapper: "UteStar is the only one who is not scum."

03-26-2008, 09:16 PM	#6
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Hey geniuses, you are not a combo 1/2 if you can't score and hit shots. There is a reason the 2 is called "shooting guard".