Jensen vs Cummard

[jay santos]

I can't believe I'm entering this ridiculous debate. I couldn't care less about Alex Jensen, but I'm loving Cummard right now.

I don't remember much of Alex Jensen. I basically only watched him when he played BYU and then maybe a handful of times beyond that. I knew he was a solid player, dependable, fundamentally sound, clutch. But I never feared him much as he seemed to be capped out at a certain level--scoring garbage points and hitting an open jumper, but never able to beat you single handedly. so that's my memory of him; I admit it's not the most educated take.

Here are the stats. The NBA productivity stat is my favorite stat, especially for these guys. It combines points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks and penalizes for missed shots, missed free throws, and turnovers.

player, year, points, reb's, productivity per 40 min.

Jensen, soph, 6.8, 5.8, 15.9
Jensen, jun, 12.1, 7.6, 23.2
Jensen, sen, 13.1, 7.5, 22.6
Cummard, soph, 9.3, 5.7, 21.6

Cummard kills Jensen in the glue stats assists, TO's, blocks, steals. But Jensen really picked up his productivity stats his jun and sen years by increasing points and reb's production. I believe Lee will do the same for points but not sure he will ever get to Jensen's rebounding level. If he picks up points and/or reb's and keeps his other stats high, he will kill Jensen's productivity stat. Also, both Jensen and Cummard's productivity stats are unbelievably high for their positions--especially Cummard playing a 2/3. Productivity stat usually favors inside players because rebounds are the easiest stat to get of the productivity matrix.

The stats show Cummard and Jensen are in the same league with two years for Cummard to improve.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I can't believe I'm entering this ridiculous debate. I couldn't care less about Alex Jensen, but I'm loving Cummard right now.

I don't remember much of Alex Jensen. I basically only watched him when he played BYU and then maybe a handful of times beyond that. I knew he was a solid player, dependable, fundamentally sound, clutch. But I never feared him much as he seemed to be capped out at a certain level--scoring garbage points and hitting an open jumper, but never able to beat you single handedly. so that's my memory of him; I admit it's not the most educated take.

Here are the stats. The NBA productivity stat is my favorite stat, especially for these guys. It combines points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks and penalizes for missed shots, missed free throws, and turnovers.

player, year, points, reb's, productivity per 40 min.

Jensen, soph, 6.8, 5.8, 15.9
Jensen, jun, 12.1, 7.6, 23.2
Jensen, sen, 13.1, 7.5, 22.6
Cummard, soph, 9.3, 5.7, 21.6

Cummard kills Jensen in the glue stats assists, TO's, blocks, steals. But Jensen really picked up his productivity stats his jun and sen years by increasing points and reb's production. I believe Lee will do the same for points but not sure he will ever get to Jensen's rebounding level. If he picks up points and/or reb's and keeps his other stats high, he will kill Jensen's productivity stat. Also, both Jensen and Cummard's productivity stats are unbelievably high for their positions--especially Cummard playing a 2/3. Productivity stat usually favors inside players because rebounds are the easiest stat to get of the productivity matrix.

The stats show Cummard and Jensen are in the same league with two years for Cummard to improve.

Two different players with different roles on two different teams in two different times. No need to compare them.

I think a better question would be how each would fare in the other team. Would Jensen help this BYU team? Would Cummard help that Utah team?

I don't know enough about this BYU team to be able to say what Jensen could do, but I doubt that Cummard would get off the bench for that Utah team.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Two different players with different roles on two different teams in two different times. No need to compare them.

I think a better question would be how each would fare in the other team. Would Jensen help this BYU team? Would Cummard help that Utah team?

I don't know enough about this BYU team to be able to say what Jensen could do, but I doubt that Cummard would get off the bench for that Utah team.

Are you comparing soph to soph? If so, maybe Jensen wouldn't get off the bench on this year's BYU team. Cummard beats him in all stats as a potential starter at the 3, comparing soph to soph. Tavernari beats him in all stats as a backup to Keena at the 4.

You make a good point that they provided different things to different team--especially their soph years. It will make a better comparison to compare the next two years of Lee's to Jensen's jun and sen years.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Two different players with different roles on two different teams in two different times. No need to compare them.

I think a better question would be how each would fare in the other team. Would Jensen help this BYU team? Would Cummard help that Utah team?

I don't know enough about this BYU team to be able to say what Jensen could do, but I doubt that Cummard would get off the bench for that Utah team.

Cummard would have played a lot for Rick Majerus. He is a much better player than David Jackson was. He is also the consummate Majerus type of player. I am not so convinced that if this Lee Cummard were on that '98 team that Alex Jensen would have started. At a minimum Lee would have played 24 or so minutes a game spelling Hansen, Mottola and Jensen as a wing player. Cummard, as a sophmore, is a much better player than Britton Johnsen was a freshman as well.

But the entire argument is qualitative.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Are you comparing soph to soph? If so, maybe Jensen wouldn't get off the bench on this year's BYU team. Cummard beats him in all stats as a potential starter at the 3, comparing soph to soph. Tavernari beats him in all stats as a backup to Keena at the 4.

You make a good point that they provided different things to different team--especially their soph years. It will make a better comparison to compare the next two years of Lee's to Jensen's jun and sen years.

I suppose I am comparing soph to soph- not so much stats as roles. I just look at the roles each play(ed) for each team. Both do what is expected of him to help the team. In my opinion, the role is more important than individual stats.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Cummard would have played a lot for Rick Majerus. He is a much better player than David Jackson was. He is also the consummate Majerus type of player. I am not so convinced that if this Lee Cummard were on that '98 team that Alex Jensen would have started. At a minimum Lee would have played 24 or so minutes a game spelling Hansen, Mottola and Jensen as a wing player. Cummard, as a sophmore, is a much better player than Britton Johnsen was a freshman as well.

But the entire argument is qualitative.

I agree that Cummard is the type of player Majerus loved. For me, knowing how good that Utah team played with the players they had, it's difficult to see just how any player today would have fit in. It's all about players and their roles. The Utah team had the role players it needed and as Jay pointed out, BYU had the role players it needs. Both Cummard and Jensen playing for either team really is tough to see.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I suppose I am comparing soph to soph- not so much stats as roles. I just look at the roles each play(ed) for each team. Both do what is expected of him to help the team. In my opinion, the role is more important than individual stats.

For a role player, the extent that you fulfill your role is more important than your stats. Maybe I missed the boat on the discussion of the two players. If you limit your comparison to soph vs soph years, there is no way to do that statistically. I think the stats comparison is more pertinent to compare their overall careers, because as you break out of a role player role and into a key/star player role, then stats show your contribution.

I guess you could make a case for Utah's 12th man that year to have a more important role in practice prepping the team for an NCAA run to the championship game, than a guy as a sophomore called the league's best perimeter defender, leading the league in FG% from a guard position, and shooting 50% from 3's on a team that likely won't make the Sweet 16.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by jay santos

For a role player, the extent that you fulfill your role is more important than your stats. Maybe I missed the boat on the discussion of the two players. If you limit your comparison to soph vs soph years, there is no way to do that statistically. I think the stats comparison is more pertinent to compare their overall careers, because as you break out of a role player role and into a key/star player role, then stats show your contribution.

I guess you could make a case for Utah's 12th man that year to have a more important role in practice prepping the team for an NCAA run to the championship game, than a guy as a sophomore called the league's best perimeter defender, leading the league in FG% from a guard position, and shooting 50% from 3's on a team that likely won't make the Sweet 16.

I agree that stats are the best way to compare two players head-to-head, especially in two different eras. Stats show what a player did on the floor.

Cummard is a terrific player. I'd love to see him on this Utah team, but I doubt Giacoletti would know how to use him. (With that statement, I guess I really am more of a "role" believer than stats guy, eh?)

[Indy Coug]

If we're to the point where Cummard is being compared to Alex Jensen, it's just a sign that Cummard has a lot of improving to do. This isn't exactly the type of comparison that gets me all giddy.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If we're to the point where Cummard is being compared to Alex Jensen, it's just a sign that Cummard has a lot of improving to do. This isn't exactly the type of comparison that gets me all giddy.

Jensen was a great player, perhaps not the create your own shot for the last second buzzer beater type of player, but I'd love to have him on any team.

Cummard may develop more offensively than Jensen, but methinks you're too harsh on a truly wonderful player.