1 Cor 12:9 vs Ether 12:27

[jay santos]

AA suggested starting a new thread.


Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their
weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and
my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before
me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in
me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

NRSV 2 Cor 12:9

but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." So, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

KJV 2 Cor 12:9

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient
for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most
gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the
power of Christ may rest upon me.

Elder Uchtdorf from last conference:

He said to Paul and to all of us, “My grace is sufficient for thee.” And like Paul we can answer: “My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9).


OK, there's the background. I throw out the observation that the Ether verse may (it's not an assertion just throwing out there as a possibility) be the result of a misinterpretation of scripture. Here are the assumptions that are requisite for this observation. So it might be more useful to dissect the assumptions. Btw, I view none of these as a major stumbling block for LDS doctrine.

1. JS might have used a translation technique where when he comes across a gold plate passage that is similar to Bible, he will insert or paraphrase Bible accounts to convey the same meaning. see Isaiah, see Malachi chapter, see other Paul/Moroni stuff like faith, hope, and charity or gifts of the spirit, also see gifts of the spirit in earlier BOM passages. See AoF 13 for a non-BOM example.

2. My observation is that Paul uses the KJV word strength many times as a reference to God's power and never or rarely to use it as an example of human strength. He uses the word weakness to refer not so much as a weakness like Max Hall has weakness in locking on to primary receiver but weakness as a reference to the human state of mortality. Weak = all human things. Strong = everything from or like God.

3. Ether version seems to be referring to strength and weakness in the common definition we might use, i.e. "Max Hall's strength is accuracy and weakness is locking on primary receiver", not the way Paul seems to use the words.

4. JS (as Elder Uchtdorf may also have done), came to a passage in gold plates that seemed just like 1 Cor 12:9 and paraphrased it, though it was a misinterpretation of Paul's original intent.


What drives me to seek out the meaning is that the two scriptures seem to be the same story told over again, yet the BOM version seems to come to exact opposite conclusion. Corinthians version is that man is weak and will remain weak and will simply need to rely on grace. Ether version is that man has weaknesses that through the grace of Christ and humility, man can eliminate and make them become strong points.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by jay santos

AA suggested starting a new thread.


Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their
weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and
my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before
me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in
me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

NRSV 2 Cor 12:9

but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." So, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

KJV 2 Cor 12:9

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient
for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most
gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the
power of Christ may rest upon me.

Elder Uchtdorf from last conference:

He said to Paul and to all of us, “My grace is sufficient for thee.” And like Paul we can answer: “My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9).


OK, there's the background. I throw out the observation that the Ether verse may (it's not an assertion just throwing out there as a possibility) be the result of a misinterpretation of scripture. Here are the assumptions that are requisite for this observation. So it might be more useful to dissect the assumptions. Btw, I view none of these as a major stumbling block for LDS doctrine.

1. JS might have used a translation technique where when he comes across a gold plate passage that is similar to Bible, he will insert or paraphrase Bible accounts to convey the same meaning. see Isaiah, see Malachi chapter, see other Paul/Moroni stuff like faith, hope, and charity or gifts of the spirit, also see gifts of the spirit in earlier BOM passages. See AoF 13 for a non-BOM example.

2. My observation is that Paul uses the KJV word strength many times as a reference to God's power and never or rarely to use it as an example of human strength. He uses the word weakness to refer not so much as a weakness like Max Hall has weakness in locking on to primary receiver but weakness as a reference to the human state of mortality. Weak = all human things. Strong = everything from or like God.

3. Ether version seems to be referring to strength and weakness in the common definition we might use, i.e. "Max Hall's strength is accuracy and weakness is locking on primary receiver", not the way Paul seems to use the words.

4. JS (as Elder Uchtdorf may also have done), came to a passage in gold plates that seemed just like 1 Cor 12:9 and paraphrased it, though it was a misinterpretation of Paul's original intent.


What drives me to seek out the meaning is that the two scriptures seem to be the same story told over again, yet the BOM version seems to come to exact opposite conclusion. Corinthians version is that man is weak and will remain weak and will simply need to rely on grace. Ether version is that man has weaknesses that through the grace of Christ and humility, man can eliminate and make them become strong points.

What of the issue of the wording "humble themselves"?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by tooblue

What of the issue of the wording "humble themselves"?

What about it?

[Indy Coug]

I don't see how these two scriptures are necessarily at odds with each other. Surely, the church is chock full of people, who through embracing the Gospel and the Grace of Christ, have overcome numerous weaknesses such that they are no longer weaknesses.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I don't see how these two scriptures are necessarily at odds with each other. Surely, the church is chock full of people, who through embracing the Gospel and the Grace of Christ, have overcome numerous weaknesses such that they are no longer weaknesses.

I agree, and don't think their at odds in the sense that they both can't be true at the same time. But if (a very large if) the Ether scripture was meant to be based on the Cor scripture, then it seems the meaning is at odds. The point each scripture is making seems to me to be nearly opposite.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I agree, and don't think their at odds in the sense that they both can't be true at the same time. But if (a very large if) the Ether scripture was meant to be based on the Cor scripture, then it seems the meaning is at odds. The point each scripture is making seems to me to be nearly opposite.

I fail to see how Ether is "based" on 1st Corinthians. Keep in mind that both Ether and Paul get their source material from the same person.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I fail to see how Ether is "based" on 1st Corinthians. Keep in mind that both Ether and Paul get their source material from the same person.

I only mean based as in if you take all the assumptions I list in original post.

Do you mean source material meaning God? Or do you mean another prophet's record we don't have? If you mean God, then of course I agree, but it doesn't satisfactorily explain why there are so many passages that are so similar. But that's another discussion.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Corinthians version is that man is weak and will remain weak and will simply need to rely on grace. Ether version is that man has weaknesses that through the grace of Christ and humility, man can eliminate and make them become strong points.

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This is a very common misinterpretation of Ether 12:27 that drives me crazy. Nowhere does Moroni say that weaknesses will be eliminated, nor that they will become strengths. He says that they will become "strong unto them". In my view, it is weaknesses that drive us to seek God's power and help in our lives. The alcoholic may never overcome that craving, but hopefully the craving drives him to a higher power, giving him strength he would never have had otherwise.

Thus, the two scriptures are completely compatible.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

This is a very common misinterpretation of Ether 12:27 that drives me crazy. Nowhere does Moroni say that weaknesses will be eliminated, nor that they will become strengths. He says that they will become "strong unto them". In my view, it is weaknesses that drive us to seek God's power and help in our lives. The alcoholic may never overcome that craving, but hopefully the craving drives him to a higher power, giving him strength he would never have had otherwise.

Thus, the two scriptures are completely compatible.

OK, I'll have to think about that. So you're preserving the strength = God, weak = man definitions in the Ether? I hadn't thought of that.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by jay santos

OK, I'll have to think about that. So you're preserving the strength = God, weak = man definitions in the Ether? I hadn't thought of that.

Based on my personal experience, I'd have to say I haven't seen a single one of my "weaknesses" (read faults or shortcomings) become strengths, but I have seen them lead me to an increased dependence on God. So, maybe I'm manipulating Moroni to fit Paul, but that makes more sense to me.

Please don't take offense at me being irritated at my perceived misinterpretation of the scripture. What's always irritated me is when people get up and talk about the Ether scripture without any real thought or experience behind it. You've shown plenty of thought with your analysis of both scriptures.