Obedience, Divine Intervention and Religion

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Without giving anything away, it is clear that people of that time held an absolute belief that their earthly blessings were inextricably tied to their level of obedience. Religious leaders used that psychology to extract sacrifice in terms of material goods (e.g. crops, goods and money), and blind obedience.

I'll think about your questions and perhaps answer them later.

I was struck by this, having spent time in Europe lately, a place dotted with beautiful cathedrals. BBC did an interesting show once focusing on this very behavior (the church demanding obedience and using it to "tax" the people in order to build cathedrals). Its conclusion was that while beautiful, most if not all cathedrals had been constructed at great cost to the local populations, particularly the poor. Better the wealth had been left with those that produced it or used to make life better for all. It provided another perspective on cathedrals.

Okay, I'll take a stab at some of you questions.

I see the motivation for our obedience as being on a continuum, with one end being gaining some sort of benefit and the other being loving God. While obeying in expectation of gaining some benefit is an okay motivation, loving God is better. Hopefully as we grow, we move closer loving God.

As for divine intervention, much comes naturally from obedience to God's will, although that is probably not direct intervention; it is merely a consequence of obedience, although we may see it as intervention. Then every so often, God reaches down and acts on our behalf according to His wisdom. We may or may not be aware of such intervention.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Requiem

With these brief thoughts in mind, I ask the following serious questions:

1. Obedience What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")?

It is a combination of peer pressure, the belief that we are being rewarded, and the gratification that comes both from doing good and from simultaneously conforming with our peers. It is complex.

Originally Posted by Requiem

2. Divine Intervention Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy?

I used to listen to general conference talks as a kid and teenager and wonder why these people had all these amazing experiences and insights that I didn't ever seem to have. The conclusion I eventually came to is that they viewed life through a different lens that I did. If you begin to look for the good in your life, you can in fact begin to see the hand of the divine in almost everything. Now, does the fact that you now see the divine in everything mean that you have become better or that you are just now looking at life in a different way? I'm not sure. I do believe in blessings. I don't believe that any particular action causes any particular blessing to occur.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

well i was being figurative ,but at the same time i am considering Requeim as a respected contemplator ,so i would have to provide genuine answers to marry the questions and please the inquirer , which indeed would produce food for the thoughts synchronously.

but the very first thing i have to take care ,is "the principal of the discussion"
which i suppose, differs for me and Requiem.

Just say what you have to say. We're not solving World Peace here, for God's sake.

[non sequitur]

Obedience is the stick and Divine Intervention is the carrot. And worshipers are the donkeys being led.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Obedience is the stick and Divine Intervention is the carrot. And worshipers are the donkeys being led.

as intellectually as ever ..thanks for educating me how should i put this.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

as intellectually as ever ..thanks for educating me how should i put this.

lol. you get funnier every time I read your posts. It took me a while to catch onto your style though.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Requiem

I am currently reading Ken Follett's new book World Without End (sequel to Pillars of the Earth, outstanding read). Set in 14th century Europe, the book vividly describes life in a community dominated by activities related to the local Cathedral and religious hierarchy. Without giving anything away, it is clear that people of that time held an absolute belief that their earthly blessings were inextricably tied to their level of obedience. Religious leaders used that psychology to extract sacrifice in terms of material goods (e.g. crops, goods and money), and blind obedience.

Fast forward to our present time. I am struck by how little has changed. Regardless of sect, organized religion seeks believers who will obey their particular creed and donate time and money in exchange for promised blessings - either in this life or the next.

With these brief thoughts in mind, I ask the following serious questions:

1. Obedience What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")?

2. Divine Intervention Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy?

I pose these questions in a serious vein and am honestly interested in your intelligent and well thought responses. Please refrain from boorish personal attacks and sexual innuendo. Think of it as my final attempt to find value here.

There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated...so what law did socalcougar keep to get a new and unused set of 38C's to play with?

I don't believe the religion I belong to promises great blessings in mortality for obedience. I think it teaches obedience to God's laws because it is the lifestyle God himself lives. The purpose is to progress to become more like Him. I do believe the religion to which I belong promises that our financial needs will be met.

Now as for the culture, I am sure everyone will have a great story from their mission president about how he paid 20% tithing and kept getting richer and richer and blah blah blah. God doesn't promise wealth and there are those in the Mormon church who will claim but He gives it to those he trusts, perhaps he does. I don't think He really cares a great deal and I think the fact that everyone's mp was wealthy was because the mp had skills the market valued.

I don't think God intervenes based upon a level of obedience, I think He intervenes based upon His purposes. I don't think He views mortality like we do.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Obedience is the stick and Divine Intervention is the carrot. And worshipers are the donkeys being led.

HEE-FREAKING-HAW!