Tonga Ruled Ineligible

[cougjunkie]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Junkie, you're one of my favorite guys here but let me just say that what Adam is saying here isn't radical or heartless or controversial. Lots of noble insitutions of higher learning decide they don't want marginal kids. So what. BYU isn't the YMCA, is it? What kind of school do you want BYU to be?

The only reason this is an issue is that BYU isn't Stanford or Notre Dame. If it were it could say, we aren't accepting any marginal kids, and still win. You should strive to become Stanford or Notre Dame.

Concluding you wouldn't Adam to be your kid's MIA teacher because he wants to resolve doubts in favor keeping BYU pristine is a silly leap. Besides, if some kid turns out to be a bad seed it's potentially BM's job.

The problem with what Adam is saying is that he is acting like we are talking about a convicted rapist or felon. We are talking about a kid that had an expired registration, and another kid that was pissed because someone hit his girlfriend with a water balloon and he got a little carried away.

What Adam fails to mention and I am sure its because he doesnt know is that Bronco has punished guys for doing much less, I know of one player who was punished for horsing around and not taking his time in the weight room serious. That would not have happened at any other program. How about Angilau getting suspended indefinitely for drinking, that also does not happen at any other program.

BYU has stricter policies and team rules than any other school in the nation, but that doesnt mean we dont have kids that need a little extra attention. Let me just say that I am glad people didnt give up on me growing up because I did things ten times as bad as both Manase and Hooks, however people didnt give up on me and I feel like I am a much better person today.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Adam

This all sounds so noble in the abstract. But look at the facts:

Hooks' girl gets hit with water balloon, goes to get Hooks, returns with Hooks, Hooks breaks down one door, wrong apt., Hooks breaks down second door, Hooks breaks down bedroom door, police arrest Hooks.

Tonga gets four speeding tickets freshman and sophomore year. He doesn't pay any of them. Tonga gets pulled over. Tonga lies and gives false id to cops. Tonga is arrested and jailed. Tonga changes from orange jumpsuit into white tie and is sealed in Temple. Tonga stops going to school second semester jr. year. Tonga flunks out of BYU.

There are mistakes that are minor and ym in the spotlight on the football team at BYU on full scholarship should not be kicked off the team for them.

I think we all agree there has to be a standard. You guys just disagree that the standard should be no felonies and not flunking out. You think felons and flunkees should be allowed to play. We disagree.

No, it doesn't sound noble. It sounds right - because it's the right thing to do. What you're promoting as the ideal is actually the opposite - just as you feel the church should 'own up' to it's history, I feel the BYU Football program should 'own up' to it's players, and help them through whatever troubles they find themselves in.

You see, that's the difference between you & me. I'm consistent with what I believe, whereas you pick & choose times to apply your 'ideals'.


And, for the record, I ABSOLUTELY believe that the football program for BYU is, indeed, a place for the spiritual growth & salvation of the players on the team. And I salute Bronco for a thoughtful approach to that process.

Like '71, I fear for the day someone like you is responsible for my child in any way, shape, or form.

[Hot Lunch]

Originally Posted by Adam

You don't know all the details. I'm sure I don't either, but I know enough to know Tonga sometimes was not a positive influence on other players off the field.

You are a dumbass and have no idea what you are talking about on this. To say Tonga was not a positive influence on other players is just you talking out of your ass.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

And this is my problem with your position. What you fail to mention is that I'm not talking about people giving up on people. I'm talking about people getting tens of thousands of tithing dollars in scholarships and benefits and being put on a pedestal for the youth of Zion to look upon as one of the stripling warrior heros in the modern church. You don't merit those bestowals? Then you don't merit those bestowals.

I think Tonga and Hooks both need some serious love and care in their lives. I think they should get that love and care from family, from friends, and even from the coaches on a personal level. They should not continue to get the bestowal of special unique treatment as a member of the BYU football team.

This is a difference you people are having a very hard time grasping.

You are going ex-ute on us here. You didn't start out by talking about whether they deserved the punishment or not, you started out with whether they even deserved the chance. If you want go ahead and back off of the "marginal" type comments you made then at least I can back off of thinking you are a radical nut case.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

If I have to choose to give football scholarships between your son, if your son is a felon and a academic failure, and another kid who isn't quite as fast or strong but honorable and clean, then you should fear your son won't get the football scholarship from me.

To assume that I wouldn't love your kid with great patience if he were my stewardship in another capacity is unwarranted and unjustified.

So you consider Bill Gates an academic failure. He dropped out. Trouble with you academics, you put way to much emphasis on it. It really isn't a measure of a persons worth.

[Hot Lunch]

Originally Posted by Adam

I stand by my statement that sometimes Tonga wasn't a positive influence on other players--like when he quit going to classes this last semester as a team leader--that wasn't a good example and didn't have a positive influence. Care to argue differently? Really?

I will not argue with his decision to not keep up on his school work. But for you to say has not been a positive influence on people off the field is wrong. My sources which are pretty good have nothing but positive things to say about Manase. He is quiet kid that has went about his business.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

You shouldn't allow marginal types onto the pedestal. If you make a mistake and let one on, kick him off.

Then go love him and try to help him all you can so he doesn't fall off the much more important perch of progress towards his potential as a son of God.

They are different things.

LOL, if Prophets of God can't pick out marginal types and allow them up in pedistals, I don't expect Bronco to.

Again, don't go ex-ute on us. Your original contention was not to let them in period. Now are you saying it is a one and done policy.

In other words you would have kicked out Cosic, Mahe, Wesli, Kozlowski, et al for good.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

I stand by my statement that sometimes Tonga wasn't a positive influence on other players--like when he quit going to classes this last semester as a team leader--that wasn't a good example and didn't have a positive influence. Care to argue differently? Really?

Sorry, guys, but I am going to have to side with Adam over Hot Lunch when it comes to inside info on the team...

[Hot Lunch]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Sorry, guys, but I am going to have to side with Adam over Hot Lunch when it comes to inside info on the team...

You would

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

Nice--equating a dropout who formed his own software company because he know more about software than any of his professors to a kid who quits going to class and disappears from his team activities. Yea, the two situations are equivalent.

This conversation is degrading quickly because you and Spaz refuse to honestly see the difference between revoking the status as a BYU football player and other unrelated statuses.

You disingenuish babbling intellectaul wannabee. Your conversation had nothing to do with revoking. Your 90% I can pick em claim had nothing to do with revoking. It had to do with your pompous claim you could spot 90% of the marginal guys and Bronco should to.

Just say you were full of shit on that claim and we can get back to gentlemenly disagreements.