Washington AD--Pac 10 reaches out to Texas and Texas A&M (Pac 10 + Big 12 merger?)

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This is because of all the morons who go on missions instead of doing the rational thing and stay in college for four consecutive years. What is the median age of BYU students?

Utah is top tier on the U.S. News college (undergraduate) rankings even with the legislatively mandated relaxed standards for in-state students. There is not a material difference between Utah and BYU (all the public schools are depressed somewhat by relaxed standards for in-state applicants; still, yes, Washington is very hard to get into). Beyond the undergraduate programs, Utah is THE center of serious research, graduate programs and intellectual activity in a vast six state region (Utah, southern Idaho (I associate norther Idaho with the Northwest), New Mexico, Nevada, Wyoming, and Montana). Utah is better than Oregon by about any measure.

Why do you suppose the Pac 10 won't touch BYU? No fan base? Weak athletic programs? As you well know, the Pac 10 would be embarrassed to be associated with BYU because of its academics life.

Funny. BYU is suppose to be so hard to get into, but there sure seems to be a lot of stupid people who went there.

You've taken the bad news even harder than I expected.

Utah is better than Oregon by about any measure? How about the medical schools? In research, Oregon is ranked #35 by US News. Utah is ranked #51. Oregon #3 in primary care, Utah is #29.

In the top public universities category, they are similar but Oregon comes out ahead, 57 vs. 63.

Universities have to raise admission standards when the demand is much higher than the supply. I suppose they could resort to simple lottery, but I'm not aware of any university that does that.

Imagine if all the kids at BYU wanted to go to Univ. of Utah, what an impact that would have. It would dramatically change the Univ. of Utah. BYU is what it is. A non-research university that draws lot of bright LDS kids.

Univ. of Utah is a mid-range public university, and because of its location and admission standards, is a commuter school. Which has manifested itself with relatively poor support of its athletics program. On message boards, we call this "attendance smack."

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You've taken the bad news even harder than I expected.

Utah is better than Oregon by about any measure? How about the medical schools? In research, Oregon is ranked #35 by US News. Utah is ranked #51. Oregon #3 in primary care, Utah is #29.

In the top public universities category, they are similar but Oregon comes out ahead, 57 vs. 63.

Universities have to raise admission standards when the demand is much higher than the supply. I suppose they could resort to simple lottery, but I'm not aware of any university that does that.

Imagine if all the kids at BYU wanted to go to Univ. of Utah, what an impact that would have. It would dramatically change the Univ. of Utah. BYU is what it is. A non-research university that draws lot of bright LDS kids.

Univ. of Utah is a mid-range public university, and because of its location and admission standards, is a commuter school. Which has manifested itself with relatively poor support of its athletics program. On message boards, we call this "attendance smack."

Top tier = "mid-range"? Since when?

Okay, I exaggerated A LITTLE BIT vis-a-vis Oregon and Utah. Clearly Utah is in Oregon's class. Don't talk to me about "primary care" rankings. As you well know, this has little or no impact on a med school's rankings that matter.

BYU's problems are deeper than that it is a non-research university. It bears all the racism, homophobia, sexism, anti-intellectualism, anti-liberal arts baggage that does Bob Jones university. It remains unrepentant and continues many of these beliefs and practices. it is anti-gay and oppresses women. Its professors are still preaching creationism in published works, not to mention the junk science at FARMS.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Top tier = "mid-range"? Since when?

Okay, I exaggerated A LITTLE BIT vis-a-vis Oregon and Utah. Clearly Utah is in Oregon's class. Don't talk to me about "primary care" rankings. As you well know, this has little or no impact on a med school's rankings that matter.

BYU's problems are deeper than that it is a non-research university. It bears all the racism, homophobia, sexism, anti-intellectualism, anti-liberal arts baggage that does Bob Jones university. It remains unrepentant and continues many of these beliefs and practices. it is anti-gay and oppresses women. Its professors are still preaching creationism in published works, not to mention the junk science at FARMS.

You're its worst critic and therefore most myopic, BYU that is.

Mike and I are better aware of BYU's shortcomings than you are, but you grossly overstate its weaknesses and ignore completely its strengths, thereby diminishing your credibility.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You're its worst critic and therefore most myopic, BYU that is.

Mike and I are better aware of BYU's shortcomings than you are, but you grossly overstate its weaknesses and ignore completely its strengths, thereby diminishing your credibility.

There isn't any such thing as a school the size of BYU with virtually no research. It's in a special category. A school that is a behemoth by every other measure but has a research budget the size of a small unknown liberal arts college. Look at the stats. "A non-research university" is an oxymoron. That only exists at BYU. I wonder why.

I'm not alone in my assessment of BYU. The Pac 10 agrees with me. Just look how BYU stacks up in terms of attendance:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...dance/2009.pdf

Note also, Utah's attendance is comparable to or higher than half of the BCS schools at least. Just imagine the boost when it gets admitted to the Pac 10.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

There isn't any such thing as a school the size of BYU with virtually no research. It's in a special category. A school that is a behemoth by every other measure but has a research budget the size of a small unknown liberal arts college. Look at the stats. "A non-research university" is an oxymoron. That only exists at BYU. I wonder why.

I'm not alone in my assessment of BYU. The Pac 10 agrees with me. Just look how BYU stacks up in terms of attendance:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...dance/2009.pdf

Note also, Utah's attendance is comparable to or higher than half of the BCS schools at least. Just imagine the boost when it gets admitted to the Pac 10.

So the mission of a university is conformity and group think with no diversity. No separate missions allowed. Gotcha.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

So the mission of a university is conformity and group think with no diversity. No separate missions allowed. Gotcha.

A "university" could decide to teach all of its classes through a musical hip-hop presentation. That would break new ground, but not enhance its reputation. All I'm saying is BYU has problems when judged by the prevailing values and standards. Universities very much do have standards and values that they tend to share and judge one another against.

[MikeWaters]

I'm sorry, what does the Pac 10 think of BYU's football attendance? That it is awesome?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This is because of all the morons who go on missions instead of doing the rational thing and stay in college for four consecutive years. What is the median age of BYU students?

Utah is top tier on the U.S. News college (undergraduate) rankings even with the legislatively mandated relaxed standards for in-state students. There is not a material difference between Utah and BYU (all the public schools are depressed somewhat by relaxed standards for in-state applicants; still, yes, Washington is very hard to get into). Beyond the undergraduate programs, Utah is THE center of serious research, graduate programs and intellectual activity in a vast six state region (Utah, southern Idaho (I associate norther Idaho with the Northwest), New Mexico, Nevada, Wyoming, and Montana). Utah is better than Oregon by about any measure.

Why do you suppose the Pac 10 won't touch BYU? No fan base? Weak athletic programs? As you well know, the Pac 10 would be embarrassed to be associated with BYU because of its academics life.

Funny. BYU is suppose to be so hard to get into, but there sure seems to be a lot of stupid people who went there.

If the question is whether or not Utah is a commuter school, you didn't address it at all (unless you think being "THE" center of serious research is mutually exclusive with being a commuter school).

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

If the question is whether or not Utah is a commuter school, you didn't address it at all (unless you think being "THE" center of serious research is mutually exclusive with being a commuter school).

I'm saying the whole concept has much meaning only in Waters' mind.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

A "university" could decide to teach all of its classes through a musical hip-hop presentation. That would break new ground, but not enhance its reputation. All I'm saying is BYU has problems when judged by the prevailing values and standards. Universities very much do have standards and values that they tend to share and judge one another against.

Well, to say that BYU deviates from university standards completely is to be in denial. For example, BYU's accounting department is universally considered top tier even though it lacks a doctoral program. We could go on.

However, for reasons I partially disagree with, BYU has decided not to pursue research dollars. Do you believe if the Board of Trustees declared, "let's go after research dollars" that it woudn't suddenly become relevant in that market? Lack of research is a choice in this instance. I'd prefer another choice but nobody asked me.

and the lack of complete academic freedom on a few limited issues is unsettling to the academic in me, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. But I understand the motive as well. OTOH, the few issues where that's a problem seems to be decreasing and may eventually fade into the past. BYU is not some middle eastern school hiding behind a cloak.

Now whether BYU belongs in another athletic conference remains to be seen. We'll wait and see. Either way, I'll still watch.