Mike's post on CB re: Bronco and HB's comment

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Fumamota McChopperdave

For me, it comes down to two games: TCU and Utah. If Bronco doesn't at least get a split out of these two games, I don't know if we've really made any progress. Of course, all the fluffy stuff is better (team attitude, enthusiasm, etc) but the results haven't changed much.

That said, even if we have a mediocre year this season, I think we'll be better next year than most people think. 4 out of 5 O linemen will be back, opening holes for Fui and Manase. The receiving corps will be back (other than the TEs) along with the chosen one, Elder Collie the younger, and the defense will return a host of well-salted players. If Hall can be average, just average, we could make some noise.

If Hall is a good qb, the offense in 2008 should be really good. Austin Collie will give the Y a legitimate downfield threat that they are missing. I thought Austin was better than Watkins. He is not the pure burner, but he is fast enough and good enough to create seperation and will definitely stretch the field vertically, especially with respect to the 15-25 yard routes.

I went into this year with 6 games that I thought BYU should win without any issues: Utah State, UNLV, SDSU, WYO, AF and UNM. I gave BYU a slight edge against CSU and Tulsa. I thought the Utah and Ariz games were toss ups and BYU should not beat BC and TCU. I think the Y has a better shot against TCU than I thought, but Bronco needs a signature win or it will start to get out of control from the various pundits.

[SeattleUte]

I see Goatnapper evinces the traditional cultural disrespect and disregard for empirical fact. What a disingenuous post! Holy moly what a spinner of yarns.

Fact: When the Utes hired Kyle Whittingham they were on the eve of playing the biggest football game in the history of the school, and on the brink of doing so absent their offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and head coach. Search utefans' archives and you will see me writing that I would trade five losing seasons for a win in the Fiesta Bowl. The Utes needed to maintain a semblance of continuity going into that epic and epochal game, and looking beyond, or the year's achievements would surely be squandered. Do you think they got into a bidding war with BYU for Whittingham because all other things being equal he was the best they could get, or all because BYU wanted him? If you think so you're letting your fan's heart cloud your good sense.

We all knew he was not the best prospect the Utes could possibly get, but at that moment in history he was the only tolerable choice. Add to that his many years of loyal service, that he was the players' unanimous choice, and finally (this was a tiny consideration) that hiring him would place Utah's despised rival in an embarassing bind of having no one qualified to hire, and Whittingham was an easy and desireable choice.

But to suggest that Utah hired him because, as was the situation with BYU and BM, he was the best available candidate, well, that's just pure BS. The Utes could have in a snap gone out and hired a promising head coach from a lesser probram as they did with Meyer, which is what some influential alumni like LAUte wanted them to do despite the exigencies. But exigencies born of their success prevented their even trying to do so. The Utes took a reasonable risk on Whittingham to maximize the odds of a win in the Fiesta Bowl. It's that simple. Here's the true story:

Football Archive
A little perspective on Coach Whittingham
By: SeattleUte, Tuesday 4 October 2005


A little perspective on Coach Whittingham
Posted By: SeattleUte
Date: 2005-10-04 10:02:27

Nearly three years ago, as the Utes were in search of a worthy successor to Ron McBride, whose sharply up and down program ultimately went the way of the Hindenburg, Kyle Whittingham was widely considered too untested as a head coach, and too closely associated with McBride's ultimately failed program to be a serious candidate for the job. But everyone seemed to agree that he was a good enough defensive coordinator and recruiter to be a lead pipe cinch to be the defensive coordinator for McBride's successor, whatever star power he might bring. And so, when the hiring of Urban Meyer was announced with great fanfare, one of Meyer's first announced hires was Kyle Whittingham as defensive coordinator.

It wouldn't surprise me if, when Chris Hill last year decided to pursue Whittingham, who seemed headed to BYU until Meyer took the Florida promotion, he in fact did so against his better judgement. Whittingham was still the same person he was two years before. Perhaps Whittingham learned something from Urban Meyer, but it seems self-evident that great head coaches are born, not made. But as a practical matter HiIl had no other option. Despite calls from hare brained fans that Hill hire an outsider, and also block Urban Meyer from coaching the Fiesta Bowl, Hill knew that at that moment in history his highest priority had to be winning the Fiesta Bowl. If history is any guide, chances are that between now and the fall of the American Empire, there won't be another similar opportunity for glory available to the Utes. If necessary, Hill and wealthy alumni were happy to mortgage the future to assure a Fiesta Bowl triumph, capping a 12-0 year and top 4 finish. So retaining Whittingham and inviting Meyer back to coach the last game (which is what the players wanted) was a no brainer.

Still, aside from this overriding imperative, I was pleased with the hire. Whittingham had paid his dues. That he was a strong defensive coordinator said something about his prospects as a head coach. I like his intensity and love of his job. And it was nice to have a coach who might stay despite his future success. Also, I felt that Urban Meyer himself got quite lucky, inheriting a special team, especially an extraordinary quarterback, and Whittingham, with his long experience with the program, seemed to have played an outsized role in the team's success. It appears he is a strong recruiter and was responsible for attracting many of the stars from the past two years, at least those on the defensive side of the ball. Finally, if Whittingham succeeded spectacularly, it wouldn't be the first time an assistant who waited well into his forties to get his first head job surprised and became one of the all-time great head coaches. Lavelle Edwards and Bill Walsh come to mind.

I'm still pleased with and optimistic about the hire. Nothing that has happened this year has surprised me. Okay, there has been one little surprise. I'm surprised that Brian Johnson has more or less lived up to the hype hopeful fans heaped upon him, because 18-year olds seldom do live up to such hype. Whittingham and his staff are experiencing what is known in the parlance as a "rebuilding year." A rebuilding year becomes necessary when a great team is gutted of all its star skill players as happened to the Utes after last year. I was ready for any tribulation this year; I'm just pleased the Utes are 3-2, they have been competitive in every game, and for Brian Johnson's mildly surprising success. As far as I'm concerned, subject to a proviso or two, Whittingham deserves a minimum three and as many as five years before I'll pass conclusive judgement on his performance. He deserves that because of the loyalty he has shown our school, and also, primarily, because that's how long it usually takes to rebuild a great football team.


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[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I see Goatnapper evinces the traditional cultural disrespect and disregard for empirical fact. What a disingenuous post! Holy moly what a spinner of yarns.

Fact: When the Utes hired Kyle Whittingham they were on the eve of playing the biggest football game in the history of the school, and on the brink of doing so absent their offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and head coach. Search utefans' archives and you will see me writing that I would trade five losing seasons for a win in the Fiesta Bowl. The Utes needed to maintain a semblance of continuity going into that epic and epochal game, and looking beyond, or the year's achievements would surely be squandered. Do you think they got into a bidding war with BYU for Whittingham because all other things being equal he was the best they could get, or all because BYU wanted him? If you think so you're letting your fan's heart cloud your good sense.

We all knew he was not the best prospect the Utes could possibly get, but at that moment in history he was the only tolerable choice. Add to that his many years of loyal service, that he was the players' unanimous choice, and finally (this was a tiny consideration) that hiring him would place Utah's despised rival in an embarassing bind of having no one qualified to hire, and Whittingham was an easy and desireable choice.

But to suggest that Utah hired him because, as was the situation with BYU and BM, he was the best available candidate, well, that's just pure BS. The Utes could have in a snap gone out and hired a promising head coach from a lesser probram as they did with Meyer, which is what some influential alumni like LAUte wanted them to do despite the exigencies. But exigencies born of their success prevented their even trying to do so. The Utes took a reasonable risk on Whittingham to maximize the odds of a win in the Fiesta Bowl. It's that simple. Here's the true story:

http://www.utefans.net/archive.php?id=2626&action=View

Thanks for the insight. Needless to say you pontificated for little other reason than to read yourself, a consistent trend in your posts I notice.

Consider your efforts as potent and influential as a Bob Dole woodie. The Utah program had a meteoric rise, without precedent in the last half of the 20th century..tell me about all those conference championships Utah won during your life with any coach other than Urban Meyer, and the reason you did not hire anybody better was because nobody better would come, but as a born mormon I am sure some zoobie like tendencies are in your DNA, so whatever you want to believe that makes you happy.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Thanks for the insight. Needless to say you pontificated for little other reason than to read yourself, a consistent trend in your posts I notice.

Consider your efforts as potent and influential as a Bob Dole woodie. The Utah program had a meteoric rise, without precedent in the last half of the 20th century..tell me about all those conference championships Utah won during your life with any coach other than Urban Meyer, and the reason you did not hire anybody better was because nobody better would come, but as a born mormon I am sure some zoobie like tendencies are in your DNA, so whatever you want to believe that makes you happy.

You have said nothing to rehabilitate your ludicrous assertion that in 2004 the Utes, like BYU, hired the best available coach all things being equal. You are like those urbanized bedoins in Iran dreaming of vanquising the Crusades 800 years ago. The fact is that for a host of reasons the University of Utah has in every respect more going for it than BYU; BYU is a school sadly treading water while the Utes are a school on the rise, in fundrasing, research, athletics, you name it. If BYU secularized its governance according to the SeattleUTe or even Waters program it woudl be more competitive with Utah.

I'd be happy to compare my thumbs up ratings and views with yours. I have authored several best sellers.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

You have said nothing to rehabilitate your ludicrous assertion that in 2004 the Utes, like BYU, hired the best available coach all things being equal. You are like those urbanized bedoins in Iran dreaming of vanquising the Crusades 800 years ago. The fact is that for a host of reasons the University of Utah has in every respect more going for it than BYU; BYU is a school sadly treading water while the Utes are a school on the rise, in fundrasing, research, athletics, you name it. If BYU secularized its governance according to the SeattleUTe or even Waters program it woudl be more competitive with Utah.

I'd be happy to compare my thumbs up ratings and views with yours. I have authored several best sellers.

That final line was flat out funny. LOL!

It does have more going for it athletically, but Kyle is still the best y'all could get. Your hoops coach might even be worse.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

You have said nothing to rehabilitate your ludicrous assertion that in 2004 the Utes, like BYU, hired the best available coach all things being equal. You are like those urbanized bedoins in Iran dreaming of vanquising the Crusades 800 years ago. The fact is that for a host of reasons the University of Utah has in every respect more going for it than BYU; BYU is a school sadly treading water while the Utes are a school on the rise, in fundrasing, research, athletics, you name it. If BYU secularized its governance according to the SeattleUTe or even Waters program it woudl be more competitive with Utah.

I'd be happy to compare my thumbs up ratings and views with yours. I have authored several best sellers.

It's ludicrous to assert that you hired the best available coach? OK, whatever. I didn't care enough to read your entire post about KW, but about your theory that one game against a #45 rated Pitt was more important than the subsequent five years...do any of your Ute pals buy that load of crap?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by jay santos

http://www.cougarboard.com/nologin/m...tml?id=2126557

I didn't read HB's comment, but this is what I was pounding the pulpit about when we were considering Bronco as a head coach two years ago.

He lost at Oregon State. That was an interesting year for Bronco. He was hired at OSU as a position coach underneath Rocky Long, the DC, who had a decent defense going. Then Rocky got promoted (UCLA?) and left. Bronco was promoted to DC. Without Rocky, his D sucked, and he was canned in one year.

Bronco then kicked around with a cruddy La Tech team. A prerequisite to coach at BYU if you're not connected to Lavell.

Bronco hooked back up with Rocky at UNM and fielded good defenses. But they still never had much overall success.

We all know Bronco's BYU's teams before he got the head job.

Bronco has never won. He's never been mentored by a great head coach on a great coaching staff. He had never coached for a team that had a good offense. He's never been affiliated with a winning program.

I've been with good companies and bad companies and had good bosses and bad bosses. I thought I always knew how to run things when I would get the chance, but until I worked for a good company and a good boss, I didn't really understand.

This doesn't mean Bronco's going to fail, but it was a major risk for BYU admin to make that hire (assuming that a winning program was even their intention at the time of the Bronco hire which may be a faulty assumption).

Despite Indy's inadequate response, this most definitely is a major issue for BYU and for us as fans.

HB Arnett is a complete nutjob and has only gotten nuttier through the years.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

HB Arnett is a complete nutjob and has only gotten nuttier through the years.

Of all the opinions I can read or hear in the media or on the internet concerning BYU football and basketball, HB would be in the top 20 I would at least give some value to in helping to form my opinion. Yours wouldn't make that list.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Of all the opinions I can read or hear in the media or on the internet concerning BYU football and basketball, HB would be in the top 20 I would at least give some value to in helping to form my opinion. Yours wouldn't make that list.

lol....the fact you'd put HB's in yours tells any fan all they need to know about yours.

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by jay santos

2. KW. He's had some stumbles at Utah and he will continue to do so. Utah is a small fish in a small pond and will never sustain long term football success. KW is a darn solid coach, and I believe he will overachieve. But, overachievement at Utah may look like failure to BYU fans and to Utes with stars in their eyes over UM's brief era.

There is absolutely no reason that Utah can sustain a solid football program. Utah can become a team that can consistently compete for the MWC title, and finish in the top 25 every few years. This is about the best you can expect for in terms of success at a MWC school. There is no reason that Utah cannot do this.