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Old 09-14-2016, 08:52 PM   #21
MikeWaters
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One of the lessons from the Blacks and Priesthood thing is that it took A LONG TIME for the church leadership to be united in rolling back the ban. It was like a 20 year process. People had to die first.

That's one of the problems with having a system that requires a unanimous vote among 15 persons. 15 persons have to feel like they are inspired to do the same thing.

For those of us that wish there was some path forward for gay Mormons, it's disheartening to read that the unanimity actually went the other way. not a single apostle did not agree with banning children of gay parents and excommunicating married gays.
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Old 09-14-2016, 09:09 PM   #22
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You do realize this is worse than the priesthood ban ever was. The priesthood ban was mostly metaphysical and even at that affected very few people. Here you have virtual children being kicked out of school, shamed in the most devastating possible way, driven to suicide, denied admission to an educational institution. Real world agony being inflicted by BYU. And all people are affected in the sense that we all have family and close friends who are gay. It cuts across all socio-economic classes, races, and genders, and here the biggest impact is on youth.
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Old 09-14-2016, 10:02 PM   #23
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You do realize this is worse than the priesthood ban ever was. The priesthood ban was mostly metaphysical and even at that affected very few people. Here you have virtual children being kicked out of school, shamed in the most devastating possible way, driven to suicide, denied admission to an educational institution. Real world agony being inflicted by BYU. And all people are affected in the sense that we all have family and close friends who are gay. It cuts across all socio-economic classes, races, and genders, and here the biggest impact is on youth.
I disagree. The priesthood ban affected numerically large numbers of persons. The gay issue affects a numerically small number, but even so leadership should have learned about the negative impact the priesthood ban had.

The US black population represents about 16% of the overall population. The gay population represents about 1.7%. The suicide issue is over-stated for PR and emotional effect (any suicide is bad but the raw numbers are small). So this has one tenth the affect, but nonetheless the bureaucratic leadership has no institutional memory of past mistakes.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:04 PM   #24
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I disagree. The priesthood ban affected numerically large numbers of persons. The gay issue affects a numerically small number, but even so leadership should have learned about the negative impact the priesthood ban had.

The US black population represents about 16% of the overall population. The gay population represents about 1.7%. The suicide issue is over-stated for PR and emotional effect (any suicide is bad but the raw numbers are small). So this has one tenth the affect, but nonetheless the bureaucratic leadership has no institutional memory of past mistakes.
Most people in the world -- 99.999% --don't place any value on LDS priesthood or temple marriage. They don't give a crap about it or understand it. But most people can relate to the pain that bigotry against gays causes.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:39 PM   #25
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Most people in the world -- 99.999% --don't place any value on LDS priesthood or temple marriage. They don't give a crap about it or understand it. But most people can relate to the pain that bigotry against gays causes.
It was not described in that manner as you conveniently ignore for purposes of making an argument.

It was correctly described as relegating black men and women to a lesser status, racial discrimination. In terms of ranking priorities, which is a dangerous game to say the least, I daresay, more people care about racial equality than about gay marriage. In fact, in light of the 1 Billion Muslims, who do not agree with gay marriage, the proportion of those caring about racial equality to gay marriage, is not even close.

If you wish to limit your arguments within the 1st World of Europe, Canada, Australia and the US, there are significant numbers of persons who care about gay marriage.

More do care about racial equality even in parts of the developing and third world. You are making an invalid argument by arguing gay discrimination is worse than racial discrimination. By relegating gay marriage discrimination I am not diminishing its importance to those who care, but it is not equivalent or greater than racial matters. Only a small percentage of the population is affected by gay marriage, but all people are affected by racial equality.
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Old 09-15-2016, 02:04 AM   #26
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It was not described in that manner as you conveniently ignore for purposes of making an argument.

It was correctly described as relegating black men and women to a lesser status, racial discrimination. In terms of ranking priorities, which is a dangerous game to say the least, I daresay, more people care about racial equality than about gay marriage. In fact, in light of the 1 Billion Muslims, who do not agree with gay marriage, the proportion of those caring about racial equality to gay marriage, is not even close.

If you wish to limit your arguments within the 1st World of Europe, Canada, Australia and the US, there are significant numbers of persons who care about gay marriage.

More do care about racial equality even in parts of the developing and third world. You are making an invalid argument by arguing gay discrimination is worse than racial discrimination. By relegating gay marriage discrimination I am not diminishing its importance to those who care, but it is not equivalent or greater than racial matters. Only a small percentage of the population is affected by gay marriage, but all people are affected by racial equality.
Both have been existential threats to the LDS Church. I'm merely making the point that this one is the bigger problem for the LDS Church. A lot has to do with the times, the Internet, higher visibility. Back then, Mormonism wasn't on anyone's radar. Least of all blacks. This problem affects many LDS of all types. My best friend growing up is out of the church and raging mad over how his two gay sons were treated. His family goes back to the pioneers, returned missionary, etc. There is no abstractions in his rage and contempt at the LDS Church.

There are blacks, whites, browns, women, etc. with a similar experience. On the other hand, Notre Dame's website encourages and welcomes LBGT applicants.

Finally, this problem is tied up with the LDS obsession with sex and sexual morality, and this hatred will be harder to part with. Is there any hatred older than hatred for LGBT? If they get rid of the prohibition, what a loss of face.

You can write whatever you want, but I wasn't making the kind of value judgment about which form of bigotry is worse. I wouldn't take a position on that so I'm not going to debate you about it. I would say they are equally reprehensible.
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Old 09-15-2016, 02:07 AM   #27
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SU is right in the sense that this issue of gay Mormons has had impacts within Mormon families that the blacks and the priesthood issue never had.

It wasn't like there were a lot of white Mormons reflecting on how their black siblings were being denied the priesthood.

There weren't many black Mormons in the US. It became more of an issue in South America. But that was still far removed from the power base of the LDS church in Utah.

Today, in 2016, we have one apostle who has a gay brother (that we know of, there may be more). And we have another apostle that ministered among men dying of AIDS in San Francisco. Both of these men know the pain that Mormon families with gay members have experienced. And both men supported these recent policies to excommunicate gays and deny baptism to their children.

These are not men that have never met another gay person. On the contrary.
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Old 09-15-2016, 02:48 PM   #28
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SU is right in the sense that this issue of gay Mormons has had impacts within Mormon families that the blacks and the priesthood issue never had.

It wasn't like there were a lot of white Mormons reflecting on how their black siblings were being denied the priesthood.

There weren't many black Mormons in the US. It became more of an issue in South America. But that was still far removed from the power base of the LDS church in Utah.

Today, in 2016, we have one apostle who has a gay brother (that we know of, there may be more). And we have another apostle that ministered among men dying of AIDS in San Francisco. Both of these men know the pain that Mormon families with gay members have experienced. And both men supported these recent policies to excommunicate gays and deny baptism to their children.

These are not men that have never met another gay person. On the contrary.
If you take the perspective that more LDS are directly affected by current gay policies, then I see your point.

That wasn't the perspective I was addressing. On the outside looking in, in pure numbers of people, there are more black people than gay people, and racial identity politics has played a larger role in American society than gay politics. Hence, more people would be affected and offended by these policies. In any event, the LDS Church is on the wrong side of history and this one may be so existential that it may not recover.
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Old 09-15-2016, 03:00 PM   #29
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http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ty.html?pg=all

and something just from HP:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-k..._12012620.html
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Old 09-15-2016, 03:15 PM   #30
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None of those suggestions will occur. Leadership loves to fall on its sword.
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