Honor Code as main reason for decline

[jay santos]

I see the HC is one of the top in this poll. I read Goat's answer, and I understand his point. The main difference I see is where the decline started.

I see three periods.

First is mid 70's to early 90's. We dominated in this period due to technology advancement in the passing game and easy schedules.

Next is early 90's through 2001. We had great success in this period.

2002 to current. This is the decline.

So when you ask why the decline, I look at what happened 2002 - 2006.

If anyone agrees with this time period, but still claims HC is a main contributor, I say you're nuts, and I'd like you to answer a couple questions.

1. Which players did we lose during this time period due to HC and in what years? And how did that have more of an impact than during the 1992 - 2001 time period where we lost Jenkins, Gilford, Whalen, Dabney, Sexgate 1994 (can't remember the exact year but we lost 4-6 players)?

2. What evidence do you have that the HC is more strict? Which players were punished in the 2002 - 2006 time period for offenses that would have gone unpunished in previous time period? Remember Gilford got one year for stealing <$100 stuff out of BYU lockers. Dabney got booted for the same but at a shop at the mall. Jenkins got booted for sex with his girlfriend.

Bottom line, this has become the favorite excuse for Crowton/Bronco homers but I don't think it flies.

[Goatnapper'96]

it is not just quantifiable by players kicked off the team. I think that Lavell's constant fighting with the HC folks resulted in him somewhat throwing in the towel towards the end. That results in less than stellar recruiting. I think that the early 90's planted the seeds and that the digression began then.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

it is not just quantifiable by players kicked off the team. I think that Lavell's constant fighting with the HC folks resulted in him somewhat throwing in the towel towards the end. That results in less than stellar recruiting. I think that the early 90's planted the seeds and that the digression began then.

When did it affect recruiting? Crowton's classes were lauded as best ever. He recruited more black athletes than ever.

The only reason it has affected recruiting, and it has, is that Bronco allowed it to, by choosing not to go after black non-LDS for a few years.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by jay santos

When did it affect recruiting? Crowton's classes were lauded as best ever. He recruited more black athletes than ever.

The only reason it has affected recruiting, and it has, is that Bronco allowed it to, by choosing not to go after black non-LDS for a few years.

I was talking about Lavell's last few classes. 2002 and 2003 did not have optimal skill players.

[The Borg]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I think that Lavell's constant fighting with the HC folks resulted in him somewhat throwing in the towel towards the end.

Just curious...how do you know that Lavelle ever butted heads with the HC/Admin over anything? Has this been out in the public "know" that Lavelle didn't see eye-to-eye with the HC/Admin?

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by The Borg

Just curious...how do you know that Lavelle ever butted heads with the HC/Admin over anything? Has this been out in the public "know" that Lavelle didn't see eye-to-eye with the HC/Admin?

Well in the espn the magazine article last year on BM, he expressed disagreement with how the honor code was being handled. If I had a way to cite to it I would.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by The Borg

Just curious...how do you know that Lavelle ever butted heads with the HC/Admin over anything? Has this been out in the public "know" that Lavelle didn't see eye-to-eye with the HC/Admin?

It has been confirmed to me that Lavell was very bitter with the HC in how the Ronney Jenkins issue was handled. He did not feel that Ronney deserved to be kicked out of BYU and felt that part of the motivation was an underlying sentiment that the football program viewed itself bigger than BYU. I think that institutionally this is shortly after Rhondo resigned, Hale was hired and Skousen began to exert more influence over the program. I do believe that the HC issues had a negative impact on the program above and beyond the players kicked out.

Further, if you recall Rob Morris and John Tait came out quite vociferously against the HC and its dealings with African-American players. Morriss called for BYU to set up a special program that helped AA non-LDS kids to be more comfortable at BYU. While I am not claiming these players lacked independent thought, there is no doubt in my mind that their vocal opposition was the result of a teamwide attitude which eminated from the coaching staff.

Then there have been minor comments here and there about BYU "legislating themselves out of competition." Lavell is a class guy and is not going to ever blast anyone, but it is my opinion that there was an internal struggle that he felt was making his job of winning games more difficult.

I hearken back to Norm Chow's "How the hell should I know?" I think that phrase captured Norm's frustration with the inability to recruit and keep quality athletically gifted skill players.

[TheSizzle36]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Further, if you recall Rob Morris and John Tait came out quite vociferously against the HC and its dealings with African-American players. Morriss called for BYU to set up a special program that helped AA non-LDS kids to be more comfortable at BYU. While I am not claiming these players lacked independent thought, there is no doubt in my mind that their vocal opposition was the result of a teamwide attitude which eminated from the coaching staff.

I actually spoke with Brady Poppinga about this issue as well while he was still a member of the team at a dinner at an away game (can't remember which one). We discussed one of the kids who was kicked out for the 'alleged' rape incident of '04. He was particuarly upset about it because this kid came from the streets, was the first in his family to go to college and actually looked like somebody who could 'make something of himself'. Instead of trying to teach him, and give him a second chance (this player was later found innocent, although his name slips my mind) the HC office simply gave him the boot and he was back in his hometown no closer to making himself better than when he started. A sad story, IMO. There certainly are ways that one could do a better job of teaching without being such pompous assholes like the HC office seems to be at times.

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

It has been confirmed to me that Lavell was very bitter with the HC in how the Ronney Jenkins issue was handled. He did not feel that Ronney deserved to be kicked out of BYU and felt that part of the motivation was an underlying sentiment that the football program viewed itself bigger than BYU. I think that institutionally this is shortly after Rhondo resigned, Hale was hired and Skousen began to exert more influence over the program. I do believe that the HC issues had a negative impact on the program above and beyond the players kicked out.

Further, if you recall Rob Morris and John Tait came out quite vociferously against the HC and its dealings with African-American players. Morriss called for BYU to set up a special program that helped AA non-LDS kids to be more comfortable at BYU. While I am not claiming these players lacked independent thought, there is no doubt in my mind that their vocal opposition was the result of a teamwide attitude which eminated from the coaching staff.

Then there have been minor comments here and there about BYU "legislating themselves out of competition." Lavell is a class guy and is not going to ever blast anyone, but it is my opinion that there was an internal struggle that he felt was making his job of winning games more difficult.

I hearken back to Norm Chow's "How the hell should I know?" I think that phrase captured Norm's frustration with the inability to recruit and keep quality athletically gifted skill players.

From a rivals perspective, I love the way that BYU deals with the honor code. The more hard lined you get, the more players you lose and the less you are competition.

From a human perspective and from a perspective as a member of the LDS church, I despise the way that BYU handles the honor code. I think it is very naive to believe that it will be an easy adjustment for these kids to live the honor code. I have a spiritual basis for believing in no premarital sex, not drinking, etc. and it is still a difficult life to live. No matter how much these kids say they are going to follow it they have no clue what they are about to get into.

I sure no one tells them that they are going to run into some very attractive girls, who are just looking for the prestige that comes from banging a football player. Now the black football players stand out quite a bit on campus, to the point that any girl that wants this prestige can find them quite easy. Really put yourself in that situation, a nice young hot girl is willingly throwing herself at you. You have no spiritual basis for not having sex, really would you stop in that situation? I know that I sure would not. I'm sure this little peril is not explained to the recruits.

Seriously without the spiritual basis for the honor code, I cannot fathom a way that someone can live it. I think BYU should take this into account when dealing with these players. Either do not recruit them at all, or you need to change the way the players are dealt with who are non-LDS. Sure it is a double standard, but well I do not think that those who have not accepted the church should be held to the same standard.

[All-American]

I would guess that a lot of things the Honor Code currently does would not be done if we were to do it again, but it would be far worse at this point (in the eyes of too many, in my opionion) to admit that you were wrong and "ease up" on the restrictions.

By now, the Honor Code is a wolf we are holding by the ears.

A peculiar institution, indeed.