What, exactly, is objectionable about "socialism"?

[tooblue]

Having lived in Canada for over 14 years I can honestly say that there is very little difference between the two countries. Yes, I pay more taxes in certain regards yet there is zero evidence to support the hyperbolic statement “it suffocates the incentive to excel.”

All that being said, IMO, Americans are not prepared for the expanded socialist policies that Obama will introduce as President and I fear the repercussions.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What amazes me is the youthful naivete which accompanies the DDDs of the world, who believe we should look to history when it supports their view of the world, but ignore it when we remind them of failed experiments elsewhere.

There is no risk DDD in moving to the left, no economic risk, no social risk, because we are American and we can combat the perils of this position. Any social change causes harm, but the question is on balance is the harm caused less than the "good" achieved. Proponents of increasing socialism in our economy ignore this discussion, as they seem to assume all government intervention is good and proper.

For example, proponents of Obama's new healthcare organization ignore the harm created by the DHHS and how much it had harmed our health care system, but they march naively ahead, let's have another huge government bureaucracy.

No poster has addressed this issue. Why?

Proponents of increasing our reliance upon goverment to solve social and economic issues seem to take the easy, lazy approach, "make another program, that will fix everything," instead of a way to stimulate natural market forces, provide checks and balances against monopolies and anti-competitive forces and to encourage financial transparency, while increasing liquidity and capital into financial markets. Why no nuance?

I am not saying there is no risk of moving towards the right (using my continuum example)...I am saying that there is little likelihood.

If you want to look at history and failed experiments, fine, let's do so.....recently, Hillary tried to roll out Universal Health Care. It crashed, burned, and failed miserably. Yet you lament the impending socialization of our healthcare....why? Makes no sense.

If you go back to earlier this year when the election talk on here started to heat up, I was the only person who suggested that truthfully, not much of anything will change....we will see.

Let's revisit this in one year and see if we are a socialized country with free healthcare for everyone. My guess is that nothing will have changed, we will hopefully be coming out of the economic slump, and we will still be in Iraq. You could be right, though. We could be Europe by next year, which would be nice because it is too expensive to visit over there right now.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by tooblue

yet there is zero evidence to support the hyperbolic statement “it suffocates the incentive to excel.”

I thought this statement was ridiculous also, but then I considered the source.

Advances in medicine, technology, art, science......those things come largely from capitalist countries, I guess.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Having lived in Canada for over 14 years I can honestly say that there is very little difference between the two countries. Yes, I pay more taxes in certain regards yet there is zero evidence to support the hyperbolic statement “it suffocates the incentive to excel.”

All that being said, IMO, Americans are not prepared for the expanded socialist policies that Obama will introduce as President and I fear the repercussions.

"Zero" evidence? Heh. Right ... those teeming, huddled masses were coming from capitalist countries.

But don't listen to me, tainted source that I am.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-...e.asp?aid=4014

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Tex

"Zero" evidence? Heh. Right ... those teeming, huddled masses were coming from capitalist countries.

But don't listen to me, tainted source that I am.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-...e.asp?aid=4014

Tex, do you really want to argue from a position of absolute ignorance? Do you really think millions of immigrants to Canada from all over the globe are NOT living the north american dream because they chose to settle north of the 49th?

Would you like me to trot out example after example of successful immigrants to Canada I personally know, work with, attend church with?

How about the family or individual from ..

China
Korea
Philippines
Sri Lanka
Albania
Hungary
Congo
Ivory Cost
Dominica
Jamaica
Barbados
St. Vincent
South Africa
Iran
Afghanistan
Pakistan

[Tex]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Tex, do you really want to argue from a position of absolute ignorance? Do you really think millions of immigrants to Canada from all over the globe are NOT living the north american dream because they chose to settle north of the 49th?

Would you like me to trot out example after example of successful immigrants to Canada I personally know, work with, attend church with?

Come on, tooblue, you're oversimplifying. There's a world of gray between pure socialist and pure capitalist, and neither the US nor Canada is at either extreme, though Canada is further to the left.

Indeed, for this reason it's hard to look at any one nation (in the western world at least) and classify it so simplistically. Instead we have to look at socialist experiments within sectors of free nations, and to large degree they are substandard. I blame this, as do many cheery capitalists, on the death of incentive.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I am not saying there is no risk of moving towards the right (using my continuum example)...I am saying that there is little likelihood.

If you want to look at history and failed experiments, fine, let's do so.....recently, Hillary tried to roll out Universal Health Care. It crashed, burned, and failed miserably. Yet you lament the impending socialization of our healthcare....why? Makes no sense.

If you go back to earlier this year when the election talk on here started to heat up, I was the only person who suggested that truthfully, not much of anything will change....we will see.

Let's revisit this in one year and see if we are a socialized country with free healthcare for everyone. My guess is that nothing will have changed, we will hopefully be coming out of the economic slump, and we will still be in Iraq. You could be right, though. We could be Europe by next year, which would be nice because it is too expensive to visit over there right now.

argumentum ad absurdum.

Nobody's arguing it will happen overnight, you're mischaracterizing the arguments in order to prevail.

And you dismiss the concerns out of hand. That doesn't mean there aren't risks.

And here's the great Lie, nothing is ever free for everyone.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

argumentum ad absurdum.

Nobody's arguing it will happen overnight, you're mischaracterizing the arguments in order to prevail.

And you dismiss the concerns out of hand. That doesn't mean there aren't risks.

And here's the great Lie, nothing is ever free for everyone.

I agree....it wont happen overnight, if at all...which is why i dont care about it.

If anything, you are the one arguing it will happen overnight. You have taken the position that all these things will happen within the next 4 years...during Obama's presidency.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Tex

Come on, tooblue, you're oversimplifying. There's a world of gray between pure socialist and pure capitalist, and neither the US nor Canada is at either extreme, though Canada is further to the left.

Indeed, for this reason it's hard to look at any one nation (in the western world at least) and classify it so simplistically. Instead we have to look at socialist experiments within sectors of free nations, and to large degree they are substandard. I blame this, as do many cheery capitalists, on the death of incentive.

The final two sentences of your statement only further demonstrates the willfulness of your ignorance. Pray tell what Canadian 'experiment' in your estimation is sub-standard? Please also point out the standard you are using to arrive at your estimation. In addition, please provide evidence to support the assertion that socialism is the (or a) root cause of the death of incentive.

We will spend all day arguing in circles.

Therefore, all that is left for us to do is classify the issue 'so simplistically' in an attempt to see the bigger picture.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I agree....it wont happen overnight, if at all...which is why i dont care about it.

If anything, you are the one arguing it will happen overnight. You have taken the position that all these things will happen within the next 4 years...during Obama's presidency.

You are a liar. I have not said so much.

It will be a process which once set in motion will be nigh impossible to reverse. Examine the British experience in health care and you'll know what I mean.

I trust no argument which starts, "well he won't be able to achieve that because Hillary couldn't..." That's a true red herring, and you know it.

Figures, you lived in Bolivia. You underestimate the risks and overvalue the benefits.