Now Ricco and The Whole Saunier Duval

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

thanks for admitting that I am right, and you were wrong.

Name a single sponsor or advertiser who has pulled out of baseball due to doping.

You can't.

where was I wrong? I have maintained that baseball is filled with cheaters and the drug policy is a joke.

You are welcome for my "admitting" you were right.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I think cycling is basically the same way, although at least cycling is kicking people out and taking things a bit more seriously. creekster's reaction to my calling cyclists dopers and archaea's (baseless) belief that cycling is cleaner than most other sports indicates that, just like in baseball, there are fans of cycling who want to believe that the scandal is isolated.

You are ignoring the substance of the posts. I wasn't angry at you for suggesting yccliing has cheaters. In fact, I have suggested it myslef many times. I was annoyed with your tedious, non-substantive and flippant remakrs which revealed your lack of knwoledge abotu the sport and that you assumed (as you have here, once again) I was claiming there is no cheating.

Arch's beleif is not baseless. If what you are syaing iscorrect, that all sports have these incentives and so they are all cheating, that cycling catches some of its cheaters is remarkable evidence that its testing is good and that it is efective. No sport has more rigoursou testing that cycling. None. Plus, so far three riders have tested positive. That is less than 5% of the starting peloton. Drug use in cycling remains a problem. No one is claiming otherwsie, least of all me.

[MikeWaters]

The greatest hitter and pitcher of the modern era--

dopers.

And frankly, nobody cares.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by creekster

You are ignoring the substance of the posts. I wasn't angry at you for suggesting yccliing has cheaters. In fact, I have suggested it myslef many times. I was annoyed with your tedious, non-substantive and flippant remakrs which revealed your lack of knwoledge abotu the sport and that you assumed (as you have here, once again) I was claiming there is no cheating.

Arch's beleif is not baseless. If what you are syaing iscorrect, that all sports have these incentives and so they are all cheating, that cycling catches some of its cheaters is remarkable evidence that its testing is good and that it is efective. No sport has more rigoursou testing that cycling. None. Plus, so far three riders have tested positive. That is less than 5% of the starting peloton. Drug use in cycling remains a problem. No one is claiming otherwsie, least of all me.

5% is low. What is the percentage of players in baseball and the NFL who have tested positive (read: caught) for steroids? My guess is that it is also pretty low, but I am just guessing.

If you are acknowleding that cycling has a cheating problem, then we are agreeing and there is no point is going forward.

I am not in a position to argue your claim that no sport has a more rigorous testing regimen because I cannot outline the testing regimen for the NBA, NFL, tennis, or the MLB. Apparently you can.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

5% is low. What is the percentage of players in baseball and the NFL who have tested positive (read: caught) for steroids? My guess is that it is also pretty low, but I am just guessing.

If you are acknowleding that cycling has a cheating problem, then we are agreeing and there is no point is going forward.

I am not in a position to argue your claim that no sport has a more rigorous testing regimen because I cannot outline the testing regimen for the NBA, NFL, tennis, or the MLB. Apparently you can.

Here is but one difference between cycling and any of the sports you mentioned. Random out of competition testing is mandatory. Last eyar the tour leader was kicked out of the race not becasue he tested positive, but becasue he had lied about his whereabouts during the off-season so that he could not be located when they tried to adminster a random OOC test. No other sport has that sort of requirement.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

It seems that cycling is dirtier than most other sports as measured by the number of stars doping and getting caught. In baseball, even if we assume (and I think it is safe to do so) that Bonds and McGuire and Giambi and Sosa and Canseco were doping, that is only one type of player.

Do you think Maddox or Pedro or Smoltz or Holliday or K-Rod or Prior or Mussina were/are doping? I don't think pictures were doing the stuff outside maybe a few old power pitchers like Clements.

Do you think speed and hit-for-average guys like Ichiro or Damon or Soriano or Reyes or Sizemore are doping? I don't.

So in baseball, at worst you have 1/3 of your stars, your power hitters, who are doping. In cycling they are all apparently doing it, from GC guys to hill guys to sprinters. They are all getting caught.

Yes, I do think all those guys you mentioned in baseball were likely doing it. You don't think someone like Smoltz took HGH to heal more quickly?n There are many drugs to cheat with and many reaonso to use them.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

It seems that cycling is dirtier than most other sports as measured by the number of stars doping and getting caught. In baseball, even if we assume (and I think it is safe to do so) that Bonds and McGuire and Giambi and Sosa and Canseco were doping, that is only one type of player.

Do you think Maddox or Pedro or Smoltz or Holliday or K-Rod or Prior or Mussina were/are doping? I don't think pictures were doing the stuff outside maybe a few old power pitchers like Clements.

Do you think speed and hit-for-average guys like Ichiro or Damon or Soriano or Reyes or Sizemore are doping? I don't.

So in baseball, at worst you have 1/3 of your stars, your power hitters, who are doping. In cycling they are all apparently doing it, from GC guys to hill guys to sprinters. They are all getting caught.

Gagne on the Dodgers.....was a lousy starting pitcher, almost run out of the league. They moved him to the bullpen and into middle relief and eventually a closer role. He started juicing big time (remember, he was almost sent back down).

While juiced, he put together a historic string of consecutive saves that spanned 2 seasons.

The he dropped off the juice....and he became injured, he lost his velocity, and he basically went back to sucking.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

The use of these drugs prescribed by a doctor to aid in the healing and recovery from injury is exactly the right use of these drugs. I hope every athlete in every sport takes advantage of every chemical invented by man which will aid and speed their recovery. This isn't even a question IMHO. And anyone who has a problem with medical science aiding recovery from injury is an idiot.

But in cycling they are using drugs to aid in the actual performance during the competition the way McGuire and Bonds did. And this is cheating.

So what was Clemens use of HGH for? How about Andy Petite? is that OK?

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Adam

The use of these drugs prescribed by a doctor to aid in the healing and recovery from injury is exactly the right use of these drugs. I hope every athlete in every sport takes advantage of every chemical invented by man which will aid and speed their recovery. This isn't even a question IMHO. And anyone who has a problem with medical science aiding recovery from injury is an idiot.

But in cycling they are using drugs to aid in the actual performance during the competition the way McGuire and Bonds did. And this is cheating.

I don't think the line between juicing for "recovery" purposes and juicing for "performance" purposes is that clean; major loophole in your system of sport ethics.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

The use of these drugs prescribed by a doctor to aid in the healing and recovery from injury is exactly the right use of these drugs. I hope every athlete in every sport takes advantage of every chemical invented by man which will aid and speed their recovery. This isn't even a question IMHO. And anyone who has a problem with medical science aiding recovery from injury is an idiot.

But in cycling they are using drugs to aid in the actual performance during the competition the way McGuire and Bonds did. And this is cheating.

Moreover, these guys, when caught, all claim they are using it to heal, but the anecdotal evidence I have read about suggests that HGH, for one, has real benefits that transcend healing.