The white shirt obsession within the Church seems

[Robin]

r.f.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Robin

Well, I might as well say the thing that is going to piss everyone off and get me hate mail from some of you...

WHETHER THE CHURCH IS TRUE OR NOT --

It seems that the church is using the structure of orthodoxy found in many cults. This isn't to say that the church itself is a cult. And maybe it is actually the cults that borrow from God's structure of orthodoxy, and not the other way around. So don't take this point the wrong way, even though it would be very easy to do so.

Cults require illogical sacrifice. Sacrifice = deep investment. The more you sacrifice, the more you are invested. It doesn't matter what the sacrifice is, so long as it is required in order to receive spiritual gifts, titles, authority, or whatever else is valued within the organization. Illogical sacrifice is the surrender of one's will. Cults will often start with very logical sacrifices -- a small portion of income to support the organization, dietary sacrifices that promote healthy living, and personal service. You will find these kinds of sacrifices in legitimate churches as well as cults. But as the sacrifices get weirder, steeper, and more involved, they become less about what is good for the individual and the community and more about the surrender of will for the sake of devotion.

Mormonism requires a LOT of sacrifice. A lot of it is perfectly legit, IMO. Some of it begins to cross the line. A uniform is par for the course in cult-land. I have thought that the transition of the WOW from excellent suggestion to absolute law began to cross the line too.

It has always seemed odd to me that a faith that so highly values personal agency requires so much orthodox behavior in order to receive the cultural, spiritual and titular benefits of practice.

This isn't to say that ALL sacrifice is nuts. Plenty makes sense. But if you were to imagine a religious continuum with Unitarians on one side, and Jim Jones' People's Temple on the other, where would Mormonism fall?

I think your over all point is a fair one. As an active LDS (and I realize you are a MINO) I have had occassion to wonder when we have crossed over from gospel underpinned principles to unrighteous dominion. I personally believe, and know that many disagree, that the "Mormon uniform" in all of its permutations has much more to do for most folks with wanting to distinuish themselves as a cut above others than it does with wanting to sacrifice. If it really is a sacrifice then I categorize it as one of the looney ones.

The problem, as I see it, is that there are many legitimate situations where the Lord requires sacrifice or requires obedience simply for its own sake or in furtherance of some purpose unknown to us. However, this is such a self incapsulating argument that it could be used to justify virtually anything. Much of this is really along the lines of "if 10% is good then 15% is better."

I heard a great talk once on "balancing principles." The jist of it was that almost every gospel principle can be bad if taken to the extreme which is why there is another gospel principle that balances it out. Charity and self-sufficiency. Turning the other cheek and righteous anger. Faith vs. study and reason.

I think the whole principle of dressing up on sunday or when going to the temple to show personal reverence and respect for God is important. The balancing principle is that God does not look on the outward appearance but on the heart (we are told this by way of instruction to not judge outward apperances).

I think that as LDS when we fail to recognize that "moderation in all things" applies to gospel principles as well (we don't all give up all our possessions to the poor, fast and pray all day in monasteries, or read the scriptures twelve hours a day) then things can become out of balance.

I think that those who are proponants of the "white shirt uniform" may on some level be well intended, but I personally think it is false doctrine. Then again what do I know.

BTW, I usually do wear either a white or blue shirt.

[Dan]

... I will continue to not wear a tie or white shirt to church. I wouldn't want to end up on the high council or bishopric or anything like that. :roll:

[outlier]

Originally Posted by grapevine

David B Haight...

David B Haight visited mission my once Sunday talk gave in church then us asked if good chili restaurant in town was in Germany so no chili restaurant but he wanted to go eat at restaurant on sunday therefore its okay eat out on sundays.

o

(I know, I didn't quite capture the voice, but it's a true story anyway. Plus his granddaughter is VERY GOOD LOOKING.)

[Alkili]

I like Elder Hollands views of the "uniform"

May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions.

That simple suggestion is not intended to be pharisaic or formalistic. We do not want deacons or priests in uniforms or unduly concerned about anything but the purity of their lives. But how our young people dress can teach a holy principle to us all, and it certainly can convey sanctity. As President David O. McKay taught, a white shirt contributes to the sacredness of the holy sacrament (see Conference Report, Oct. 1956, p. 89).

[All-American]

I somewhat regret having responded earlier, giving the impression that I somehow consider any of this relevant.

Given a wide row of colors of shirts you could wear, white is preferred because it could serve as a help in remembering covenants that have been made. Similarly, given the choice between a savings account with a 1.16 and a 1.17 percent annual interest rate, you'd want to go with the 1.17, ceteris paribus.

And it probably matters about that much.

[Alkili]

Originally Posted by All-American

I somewhat regret having responded earlier, giving the impression that I somehow consider any of this relevant.

Given a wide row of colors of shirts you could wear, white is preferred because it could serve as a help in remembering covenants that have been made. Similarly, given the choice between a savings account with a 1.16 and a 1.17 percent annual interest rate, you'd want to go with the 1.17, ceteris paribus.

And it probably matters about that much.

I think you may be overstating its importance.

[FMCoug]

I always find this topic amusing. I faithfully wear my white shirt to my church meetings, am clean shaven, and have a "missionary" haircut.

Why? Because I have priesthood leaders who have counseled me to do so. If there are blessing available to me by following counsel that is that simple, I'm all over it.

I don't think this makes me better than anyone else (in fact, discussions like this are the only time I even think about it) nor do I think it has much to do with my eternal salvation.

I simply choose to focus my energies on more important things than "rebeling" by wearing a colored shirt to my meetings.

BTW, I have found this to vary greatly from stake to stake. In my last stake, these issues were very big deals, less so in the current one.
But Stake Presidents have keys to direct their stakes as they see fit. I may very well be under condemnation for not following counsel in one stake where I would not be in another.

I firmly believe we will be judged more on our attitudes and reasons for doing / not doing what we did in our lives, not a checklist of actions.

[DrumNFeather]

I find it very interesting to read the responses to this topic in particular. Because, IMO, it really is a topic that has a number of branches we can go off to.

Specifically, I find it interesting that we're talking about intentions, reverence towards God, "it's what's inside that counts...not outside etc..."

Someone jokingly said that he would not wear a tie to church so that he could avoid a EQ or higher calling. While I understand he was joking, I find it interesting that the only thing we're worried about here is shirt color...not wheather we should wear a collard shirt at all, or why can't we wear Jeans to church like others, or a discussion on nice ties vs. Disney ties etc...but simply, color of shirt.

IF we are truly only concerned about shirt color as a means of proving that it's what is in our hearts that count, then, why not show up to church in a T-Shirt and Jeans? If God loves us all the same and knows our hearts, then what would be the problem?

If you say reverence and respect to God, I'd ask where that doctrine is. If there is no Doctrine that says we're required to wear a white shirt to church, then I would venture to guess that their is also little doctrine outlining what we can and cannot wear.

For example: When I lived in salt lake city, my singles ward looked more like an artists pallet than a church congregation, shirts ranging from Neon green to pink to black. The girls had plenty to show off as well trying to keep up with the fashion of the day and many of the Elders, yes returned missionary elders showed up in a colored shirt, a tie to match and flip flops on their feet. So, where do we draw the line? and again, what is really at issue here?

IMO, singles wards kind of don't count, they serve one purpose and that is to allow young single adults to meet eachother and get married...and what happens as a result? We've got ourselves a fashion show...

Back to my point, where do we draw the line between what is appropriate for church and what is not? UtahDan made the point that we sometimes like to fancy ourselves as "a cut above" because we see Catholics or Lutherens heading to their services in jeans and we scoff at them because they're not being reverent. As i've said before, to me, it's a simple case of some of us in the church finding some way, any way to not completely conform to the prevailing standards so when we are asked we can say or have said about us, "No, he's a cool mormon."

[MikeWaters]

neat, clean dress. period. (that is if you can afford it. we have some poor folks that don't have dress clothes at all and live hand to mouth).